Wow, WOW! EBAY's getting out of control !!

TermedPS · #1 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 07:35 AM

Friend = powerseller, pre 2007, 30k + FB's - Non-Vero, 99.7% DSR's all > 4.7.

He's a GREAT photographer and takes excellent pictures.
He just got BANNED for "copying the manufacturer's pictures" !!!
He said "No WAY!!! I have the original pictures!"

Long story short, Fbay wouldn't have it.

He's so pissed right now. He's considering a lawsuit, but we all know how $$$ that can be.

Reinstatement chances? ZERO as per Fbay.

WTF is wrong is eBay? Nevermind, it was rhetorical.

Just another sad sad F'd up story.

PS: He just lost a $30K/month business he built for over 8 years.
PSS: John, if you're here reading, sorry to write about you, I just felt this board needed to know your story.

**aspkin** · #2 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 07:41 AM

That's why you never put all yours eggs in eBay.

Too bad really, hopefully this will be a learning experience for the guy.

philly387 · #3 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 08:41 AM

Well just make sure he knows about this forum! Also, he could make his own site and aspkin's Webmaster Blueprint book is a great way to start one!

**saijin** · #4 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 09:30 AM

that's practically what happened to me as well.

sdot10 · #5 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 11:37 AM

seems to me if he was pulling in 30k a month and has the original prints that its pretty open and shut. If i were him i would file in smalls claims court for the maximum. That usually gets their attention and when the lawyers/mediators call him then explain to them and let them know a bigger lawsuit is coming unless something is done.

gurusgrafx · #6 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 11:44 AM

If he was pulling 30K a month the cost of a lawsuit really isn't that bad.

nobody999 · #7 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 12:10 PM

30K is that gross or net? if gross, it's not that much, it's the net is the bottom line.
but file a report with BBB, and see what that takes him.

idiotbay · #8 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 02:55 PM

wow, even the big sellers go down, i would of thought ebay would want these kind of sellers to keep selling

#9 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 07:22 PM

I think they forgot to send the bots to Sesame Street. Mentally chew on that.

ebay · #10 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 07:32 PM

when your a powerseller you can ring them up and sort most problems out
in the uk they are alright

gibsonton · #11 (**permalink**) 07-01-2009, 08:22 PM

There isnt nothing Ebay can do if a copyright owner says something is Vero than they have to pull it or risk a lawsuit themselfs ...There is a semi-popular singer who died years back and his mother will not allow hardly anything as far as shirts to be sold ,now you can bring a suit vs her and the estate but who is going to over a $20 shirt .
I am curious who turned your friend in ?

TermedPS · #12 (**permalink**) 07-02-2009, 06:38 AM

I've been talking to my friend about this for the last 24 hours.

The problem with a lawsuit, small claims or not, doesn't solve his immediate cashflow problems. Sure he has a little saved up, but when you have a family of 4, there's not much left over even at 30k (gross - I believe his margins are somewhere around 50% after expenses).

When he originally got the dreaded email from eBay, he immediately called his PS hotline and got the usual, "we;ll look into it...". He was hopeful, but then the emails stopped from the PS dept and only got emails from T&S after that first email.

From talking to him, I believe as one of you did, that this might have been a complaint by a non-vero manufacturer, or a competitor through a diff acct (perhaps more than one). I remember when my brother (me too, for that matter), got banned, our FB, DSR's etc...were all great. No significant complaints nor chargebacks, PP claims, etc...same with him.

Just another "BAM" out of no where.

Yes, he's considering a lawsuit, but frankly, my advice to him was to join this board or at least read it. If you folks recalll, I tried for 2 months trying to get my PS acct back to no avail. So that's exactly what I told him..."Would you rather waste time, or get back to selling?"

He's just so depressed right now, I'm really not forcing the issue on him.
He's also considering leaving eBay all together and starting his own website, but once again, we all know how long that takes to start generating $$$.

Termed

gibsonton · #13 (**permalink**) 07-02-2009, 01:54 PM

What was he selling photos of famous people ? I am just saying he could contact the Vero company , i have done that on 2 occasions and got the vero removed but if he is in the wrong than it will not do anygood .

JamesYaBaoy · #14 (**permalink**) 07-02-2009, 06:36 PM

They might give in to a BBB complaint.

adventmma · #15 (**permalink**) 07-02-2009, 07:32 PM

It's strange that since he's been moderately successful for this many years that he never went all out with his own website. Could have kept selling on ebay all along, too, and it's much easier to hook up a merchant account to your own website, too, which means savings. One has many more options by way of design, options and opportunities when running one's own website. Could have used the ebay outlet to attract customers to his website, too. He can still start his own website fast and just bulk email his repeat ebay customers to come to his website. Tell his story in the email to the customers. It wouldn't come off as a sob scam story because they've already bought from him, and people that are even somewhat passionate about art would have enough cause to support his enterprise by continuing to buy from him. Explore all the other suggestions mentioned before me, too. If his photographs fall into a certain distinguishable category that makes them very noticeable, then even if he somehow got reinstated on ebay, someone could dump on him anonymously again and again, which could have easily been the case in this story. Ebay is a robot, they do first and think never.

biglouis999 · #16 (**permalink**) 07-03-2009, 02:30 AM

Sometimes its surprising what cooperation or information you can get out of eBay if you catch them on the right day. I contribute a lot to the powersellers discussion forum on ebay UK and this grasser (aka sneak) keeps reporting my posts and getting me warnings for "hate speech" or "adult language". Meanwhile on the same thread there will be other people using swear words or having real vicious arguments. They never get reported. It got like I was reluctant to use the forum.

Anyway I rang up and insisted to speak to a supervisor and made a complaint of malicious reporting. I pushed the disabled card (yes I really am disabled) and argued that this person was making it difficult for me to use a facility that eBay provide for all powersellers and therefore interfearing with my ability to run my business. I referred to all the pulled posts and asked "was it XXX". The supervisor said "well I cant confirm or deny it but looks like someone really has got it in for you." So now I more or less know who the sneak is.

The superviser said they can flag the ID and watch to see if he appears to be making "malicious reports" and then in the first instance issue a formal warning. Yeah and then he will know it was me. This is a dude who already has a lot of enemies on that forum because hes always trolling and flaming folks. I told the supervisor "no dont bother on my account."

I stopped using that forum and just use the business forum now under a posting ID. But I believe that "revenge is sweet" and also a dish best served cold. So in 3-6 months I will be getting my own back on this sneak. Hell, I have got people who wronged me in the past and I am still making their lives a misery 7 years later.

biglouis999 · #17 (**permalink**) 07-03-2009, 02:39 AM

#33 Anyone who does not have their own webby and other platforms or outlets is crazy anyway in the current climate!

I started my own website just under a year ago and its starting to now outperform eBay. Hell, we havnt even fully optimised it yet! I also sell privately to a number of US and European wholesalers and am crrently looking at 2 other platforms. I sell "collectables" so although eBay would appear to be the "one and only" outlet thats not true. There are a number of alternatives (albeit smaller) in the UK and USA and with a much better class of clientelle.

What you find with a website is that you get a better class of customer who spends more and makes far less trouble. Whereas on eBay you get the bottom feeders and the scammers.

You do need to develop multiple income streams (especially in these hard times) in case one gets pulled.

The story you quote does not surprise me. One of the UK powersellers who sold branded cosmetics takes her own photographs of the products and they are of very high quality. She hit a similar problem with "vero" even though she could prove they were her own photos and she was an "approved" seller. I never found out how she got on but being a smaller seller she had no recourse to legal action.

inverser · #18 (**permalink**) 07-03-2009, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TermedPS

Friend = powerseller, pre 2007, 30k + FB's - Non-Vero, 99.7% DSR's all > 4.7.

He's a GREAT photographer and takes excellent pictures.
He just got BANNED for "copying the manufacturer's pictures" !!!
He said "No WAY!!! I have the original pictures!"

Long story short, Fbay wouldn't have it.

He's so pissed right now. He's considering a lawsuit, but we all know how $$$ that can be.

Reinstatement chances? ZERO as per Fbay.

WTF is wrong is eBay? Nevermind, it was rhetorical.

Just another sad sad F'd up story.

PS: He just lost a $30K/month business he built for over 8 years.
PSS: John, if you're here reading, sorry to write about you, I just felt this board needed to know your story.

I would have your friend talk to someone from a local news station, or maybe try to contact someone that has a very popular blog, and tell the story of how a talented photographer turned entrepreneur was wrongly suspended by big bad eBay.

It's amazing what a little bit of bad press can do. eBay certainly won't change its ways, but your friend may get his account back.

gibsonton · #19 (**permalink**) 07-03-2009, 07:58 AM

Its pretty simple he was either correct or incorrect - also why did he not join Vero himself if he had the rights to the items .A friend of mine sold photos for 6 years on ebay and had over 10,000 fb untill they caught him but he was wrong as he did not have the rights to sell the images but skated by for that long .If your friend had the rights he should be able to contact the vero member and get it corrected or pay a attorney a small fee to just make a phone call to the vero memeber if he is correct -you dont have to bring a lawsuit many attorneys will do this for $300-$1000 and if he was making $30k a month cant see how he can not afford at least a consultation with a attorney to see if he has a case.

TermedPS · #20 (**permalink**) 07-03-2009, 08:45 AM

Good morning all,

A few more details/facts.

1- He does NOT sell photographs.
2- He has submitted to eBay ALL the original photos, pictures of his studio, and other info that PROVES the pictures were indeed his own.
3- He has still NOT been told who/what/where/when this violation/report came from.
4- All the emails from ebay T&S as been the dreaded canned emails.

All good suggestions on what he COULD do, file BBB report, talk to the media, etc... BUT, realistically, the time/energy he will spend trying to get his account back will most likely be a waste anyway (as many of us know). He IS talking to a lawyer about it (prelim chats), but he's been told that it will take time, $$$, and no guarantee of victory.

He is lurking around the forums (still depressed) and trying to figure out his next move. As I can't speak for him, I don't know what he will do. He has no knowledge of building his own website and all he knows is eBay.

To make matters worse, he is almost 50 years old, and a man of high integrity. When I spoke to him about stealth accounts, he looked at me as if to say, "you're suggesting that I create @@@ acct's? I can't do that."

Honestly, I don't know what he'll do. I am trying to convince him that a website is the way to go if he can't bring himself to go stealth.

adventmma · #21 (**permalink**) 07-03-2009, 10:30 AM

As the world changes around the man, the man must change around the world in order to survive. Food and shelter come first. He can get knighted to go off slaying dragons later. :-)

gibsonton · #22 (**permalink**) 07-03-2009, 01:17 PM

without having an idea what he was selling i dont think anyone can really help as far as past experience.

eseller · #23 (**permalink**) 07-03-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idiotbay

wow, even the big sellers go down, i would of thought ebay would want these kind of sellers to keep selling

Nope, unfortunately ebay doesn't want large personal power sellers making that much money

ebay only wants BIG RETAILS aka walmart / best buy / buy.com ect - they are trying to "phase" out people from selling their goods on ebay - They only want us on ebay as consumers . . . .

what they fail to understand is that many of the consumers on ebay ARE also sellers and will abandon the site and ban the site all together if they are naru'ed even once . . . .

everbody isn't a sealth aspkin's seller

sdot10 · #24 (**permalink**) 07-03-2009, 05:28 PM

I still say a smalls claims court lawsuit is the way to go. I had a problem with circuit city and filled a lawsuit and within 3 days of the paperwork going through got a call from their lawyers trying to settle and see what the problem is. Companies give you the runaround until you actually do something. Small claims costs like $30 to file seems to be the smart choice. And per a lawsuit before I know you dont even have to go out to cali to sue them. Just find out who their registered agent in your state is and serve them. The whole process takes like 30mini to do.

eseller · #25 (**permalink**) 07-03-2009, 06:47 PM

sue them for what? Any company has the right to deny serves last time I checked - I am not big ebay fan . . . . but Im just saying . . . what would be your claim?

gibsonton · #26 (**permalink**) 07-04-2009, 09:36 AM

You can bring suit vs. a company if they are trying to deny your First Sale Doctrine or if you had the rights to something .I had to get my lawyer who luckily enough is a family member, to contact a vero member 2 years back and they quickly dropped it once i supplied the info that their cyber police were incorrect but you have to know you are correct .I have done things the wrong way before and deserved the veros i got .I have gotten about 16 veros over the last 10 years on the same account ..10 , i desereved ...3 were incorrect and 3.. i dont really know as they were part of large 3rd party closeout/liquidations i purchased.......

#27 (**permalink**) 07-04-2009, 05:39 PM

Breach of contract, if they are in violation of their own terms of service. Also, your obligations to them are null and void if any portion of their contract violates your legal rights.

Now, go read the agreement again. Both sides. Then read the law. Ding Ding. Party if you wanna, or do like we do and just dick each other back and forth. It's a game, n'est ce pas?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eseller

sue them for what? Any company has the right to deny serves last time I checked - I am not big ebay fan . . . . but Im just saying . . . what would be your claim?

Burning · #28 (**permalink**) 07-04-2009, 06:04 PM

Vic, did you learn french or did you use a google translator.

#29 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 12:00 AM

I took 4 years of French, from 1981-1985. I forgot a lot of it, but sometimes bits and pieces come back to me. Que est ce que ca va?

**GreenBean** · #30 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 01:45 AM

Men of integrity fight battles. He just needs to have the integrity to fight for his rights. End of

waterproof · #31 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 09:30 PM

A VERY unfortunate story to say the least! Ebay has been out of control for a long time. They could care less for the Good, the Bad and the very Ugly. It doesn't matter to Ebay if you made them 10 GRAND a day from your sales...there always seems to be someone on the lookout for "things" to-good-to-be-true.
We are all just a dime in the bucket! This just goes to show that even the very honest and hard-working of Ebayers get the boot for either NO explanational reason or for the most petty of reasons.
For a while, I soley depended on Ebay for ALL of my 2nd or excess income.
I believe that if Ebay sold in the US only, they would reconsider some, if not most, of their restrictions, suspensions and indefinate suspensions. But because they are global and that makes for millions of more accounts and profitable sales, then they have no concern and no bother to "close-the-door" on all who seem or appear to be suspicious.
So, having said the above, if there is no way out for your friend and needs the sales from Ebay to make a living or whatever the case may be, I would recommend the introduction of the STEALTH GUIDE to he/she.
Good Luck my friend!
h20 proof

gibsonton · #32 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 07:45 AM

Before we Blame Ebay on this one... maybe he finally just got caught doing something wrong many people with over 500,000 fb have been kicked off ebay in the last year because they finally got caught , some things dont add up on this story or they are leaving key elements to the story out .
The threadstarter says he was copying the Manufactures photos ....but they were his own ..than contact the manufacture or did he not have the rights to be copying or making his own ..also they dont normally zap a seasoned/older account on a first vero offense unless it is something major and why not fight for a 30k a month business .
Also he should read Tabberones website for tips on how to legally fight for your First Sale Doctrine .its just kind of tough when the thredstarter leaves so much out especially what at least an idea of what they were selling .

eseller · #33 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gibsonton

Before we Blame Ebay on this one... maybe he finally just got caught doing something wrong many people with over 500,000 fb have been kicked off ebay in the last year because they finally got caught...

ebay does this all the time . . . . its nothing new . . . . they don't care about sellers only buyers - did you guys know their is a buyers help line now?

If you aren't a silver power seller ebay wont give you a phone number but buyer now have a hot-line they can call when something doesn't add up with a purchase - I am all for it but shouldn't their be a line for sellers as well???

I forget who it was on this fourm that said it best but I am going to quote them - They said "ebay is run by robot and idiots" which is honestly quite true - THEIR ARE TOO MANY LISTING TO PAY PEOPLE TO MONITOR so 99% of the suspensions take place via computer automation and after the fact it is almost impossible to get anyone at ebay or paypal to do anything about it - The people who you talk to on the phone are mostly minimum wage people who could not help restore an account even if they wanted to- Sad isn't it with all the people on this and other forums don't you think that people just want to sell online in peace with out fear hanging over your head but it is now harder than ever too keep an account going constantly generating a deceit income for more than a few month to a year tops - Thats why the people on this forums "don't put all their egg in one basket" and are fourced to operate multiple stealth accounts . . . . It isn't right . . . . I should have just as must of a chance to operate my business on ebay as Walmart does but unfortunately this isn't the case anymore

Pictures isn't a good reason to loose an account and neither is DSR's without a member of ebay staff that monitors it but this has become the routine - commuter automated suspensions that F%#K the little guy - The only reason you should loose your account is if you are selling items and not shipping them or grossly misrepresenting items - besides that than a seller should be allowed to sell their item in a free market without scrutiny or fear of loosing your monthly income

gibsonton · #34 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 08:54 PM

I have had the same account for going on 11 years and close to 20,000 transctions, my main supplier is 10 years and almost a million transactions we have had issues but have gotten them worked out because we were correct and proved it and i have done things incorrect and sold things that i should not of and deserved what i got and also had 3 vero problems on things that were completly in my rights to sell -so i too the chance and got my account suspended for 7 days two years ago and than decided to not chance with vero and customs anymore - a little over year and no Veros at all , i wrote on here about buying wholesale and how to almost eliminate worring about vero and one person took that advice and is doing pretty good with it after 2 months .good luck and if you are correct on something fight for it.

**GreenBean** · #35 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 10:41 PM

^^^Bingo. @if you are correct on something, fight for it. That's just what the OP's friend must grasp.

TermedPS · #36 (**permalink**) 07-07-2009, 07:09 AM

Good morning,

I've been a bit busy, so my apologies for not following up here.

I had no idea this thread would develop so much.

A few more facts and clarifications:

My friend was "accused" of copying the manufacturer's pictures by eBay. As I said, this was NOT a vero issue. He never got a vero letter. He does NOT sell vero. I also mentioned that this could be a competitor (perhaps using multiple id's) reporting his listings. Perhaps the competitors read the Book on how to so this.

If you read my own "horror story" in the intro forum, I was also the victim of a "never fully explained" reason(s) for being banned. I am now somewhat convinced that SOME of my thousands of missing feedbacks are to blame. Even though I had 99.9 FB with DSR's all 4.8 or better, I was NEVER given a straight answer about WHY I got banned for infringement. Just the usual, "We've reviewed your account.......but....blah blah blah..... T&S". Recent eBay policy changes seem to suggest that they no longer want smaller sellers as some have already mentioned.

Alllow me another example. Next to my office, is a PS with almost 250,000 FB's, they sell computer parts, both generic and branded. They only started 4 years ago but they have not received ONE eBay email about their business. NOT ONE. Yes, I've asked them since I know them personally. I'm sure they have had their share of vios and reports against them. Why would they be untouchable? Perhaps the fees they generate?

So you compare eBay policies...what's the logical conclusion?

As my someone said supra, food and shelter comes first. For me, MY food and shelter comes first. John can do his own thing whether it's a law suit or start a website. I simply told him that there are options and I am sure he has been reading this thread since I mentioned Aspkin's site.

Finally, small claims gets you small claims damages - depending on your state, it's only a few thousand dolllars (I believe in NY, where I live, it's $2,000 - $3,000). Not worth pursuing. I've advised him to go for a contingency based lawyer who might have some experience with eBay.

That's all for now. My main point of this post was to simply point out what many have been telling me on here, starting with Aspkin...

DO NOT PUT ALL YOUR EGGS in one basket. You never know when that basket may rip or get stolen from you.....

Termed

PS: For those asking what he sells, I cannot disclose that since my friend's business situation is a fluid one.
He sell a niche category so it wouldn't be fair for me to disclose what he sells.

PSS: No, he is NOT a seller violating TOS who "finally" got caught.

Jonas · #37 (**permalink**) 07-07-2009, 08:39 AM

The reason eBay doesn't care about sellers is because even if they treated sellers like gold, if the buyer traffic stopped, then all the sellers would leave. They can treat sellers like gold or like garbage and the amount of sellers on the site will still be proportional to the amount of buyers no matter what.

eBay's flaw is that they don't treat real buyers like gold, instead they ignore real buyers and treat scammer buyers like gold.

gibsonton · #38 (**permalink**) 07-07-2009, 09:03 AM

Not asking what exactly he sells but just cant make sense of the story , if he is accused of copying the manufactures photos than obviously it is not his own product , we all take a photo of a manufactures product when we take a photo and list something - i know you can get in trouble for using someone else's photos/images as i had someone use my photos and i turned them in and than ebay told me i used their photos so i than had to give them one of my store listings that had been listed for 6 months to prove my case - this is the only reason why i asked to try and understand the situation....

TermedPS · #39 (**permalink**) 07-07-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gibsonton

Not asking what exactly he sells but just cant make sense of the story , if he is accused of copying the manufactures photos than obviously it is not his own product , we all take a photo of a manufactures product when we take a photo and list something - i know you can get in trouble for using someone else's photos/images as i had someone use my photos and i turned them in and than ebay told me i used their photos so i than had to give them one of my store listings that had been listed for 6 months to prove my case - this is the only reason why i asked to try and understand the situation....

- Yes, you are correct, the items are not produced by him.
- No, he did not copy someone's pictures.
- This suspension, in my opinion,
was due to either Fbay's FUover BOTs,
competitor's actions of some sort,
unreported FB's perhaps being reported to eBay, etc...

I have no idea what caused this suspension, I am only reporting what has been passed on to me. He has been an honest seller for his entire eBay life. When I first joined this forum, I thought if you did everything right with minimum FB %, DSRs, etc, that you would be safe.

Well, I know what I did and did not do on my own suspended PS account.
For those who may not know, we are LICENSED distributors of sports products.
Even with PROOF, ebay wouldn't hear it.

I know what John has done also.

Neither one of us did anything wrong.
So I'm simply saying that having a AAA+++ account on ebay doesn't insulate anyone from something like this happening.

Start aging your accounts now! (not you in particular gibsonton)

Termed.

#40 (**permalink**) 07-07-2009, 07:14 PM

Not quite true. Look at this. The M4 Logon Key. It is mine. The product, the photo shown in the listing, the box art, the screenshot, the software code, the license keys, the publisher is hired by me, and Tiger Direct has to have MY permission to sell it. The written contract is ME allowing THEM to make a buck off MY goodies.

In the section for Detailed Features of the product, squint real close at the screenshot. Whoodat Dere?

I listed that on ebay, and they tell me I stole the images from Tiger Direct. Uh, no I did not. I got pissed off and contacted Tiger Direct. They knew nothing about the issue at all, and got all down ebay's back about dragging their name into it. They backed me up during my issue with ebay. There is nothing absolutely nothing about that product that I did not do with my very own hands and brain. The listing as seen on Tiger Direct was made by me, as part of the contract agreement (I retain full control of marketing text and images). I have all the legal paperwork for every facet and angle. ebay never even said 'oops'.

ebay is full of pschit more often than not.

Here's the link again without it being anchored to text: M4 LOGON KEY M4LK001WM at TigerDirect.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by gibsonton

...if he is accused of copying the manufactures photos than obviously it is not his own product...

we all take a photo of a manufactures product when we take a photo and list something - i know you can get in trouble for using someone else's photos/images as i had someone use my photos and i turned them in and than ebay told me i used their photos so i than had to give them one of my store listings that had been listed for 6 months to prove my case - this is the only reason why i asked to try and understand the situation....