Business software alliance

[stas]

Hello.
I'm from Russia. Sell in Bonanza.com
Today me send this message:

Hi,

I would like to kindly request you to delete your listings on Bonanza for Microsoft software products with immediate effect. You are not an authorized Microsoft reseller of this product.

We have been monitoring you for some time now and suspect that you have been selling illegal software on various online websites via different names. We have noted your IP Address and have been in touch with your ISP provider and Bonanza.

This is our last and final warning, failure to comply will result in us pursuing legal action to criminally prosecute you to the full extent of the law. We will also advise our alliance member Microsoft to take civil action on you to recover all revenue that you have generated from all illegal software sales of Microsoft products to date.

Failure to respond / comply within will result in us initiating enforcement action against you as appropriate.

Diane Bergstorm
Senior Risk Consultant
Global Compliance and Enforcement Team
Business Software Alliance

Written some sort of nonsense. On any other sites I not sell. IP address from my provider is dynamic.
Before that there has already been mentioned Diane Bergstorm.
Has executed as she wanted and deleted listings.
But now I am in doubt. Maybe it's competitors?

[ovidiu]

Stas, are your items legit?

You do not need to be an authorized anything to sell Microsoft software. As long as it is not counterfeit, no one can do anything. Especially in Russia, where this isn't exactly one of their top priorities.

[stas]

Product legal, but I'm not authorized by the seller, therefore consider it illegal.
I asked about the absurdities of the message. That's what I was told:

We at the Business Software Alliance (BSA) defend the intellectual property
of our alliance members (including Microsoft) across the world with
operations in over 60 countries. You can check our details at our website (
BSA | The Software Alliance). Also feel free to call us at about your concerns on our UK
hotline +442073406080

This is only the case if you are reselling a the full retail boxed product
that you previously owned yourself. You appear to be reselling Microsoft
codes on Bonanza on a commercial basis as as business (multiple codes). In
order to sell Microsoft products or licenses on a commercial basis you or
your business have to be specifically authorized as reseller or
distributor yourself by Microsoft in line with the software license
conditions. This authorisation to resell cannot be assigned or allocated
via a 3rd party (i.e. your supplier)

We have checked against the register of Microsoft’s authorised reseller
database and you are not on the list. If you have another registered
trading name that Microsoft would recognize, please let us know and we
would be happy to recheck this against the register.

Reselling without authorisation is strictly prohibited under the license
conditions and would be treated as breach of Microsoft’s intellectual
property.

Kind Regards

Diane Bergstorm
Senior Risk Consultant
Global Compliance and Enforcement Team
Business Software Alliance

I hope someone it will be useful.

[JamesNorth101]

Not much to add to what they have said really.

Either become an authorized reseller or find another product.

[jeffweico]

The deal is, the First Sale Doctrine still exists. If your items are legitimate, there is no way they can put you in jail. And, YES, you CAN file a counter-notice to a DMCA takedown. All of that is true.

But the rights owners can make your life a living hell regardless of the legitimacy of your items. If you go to court and your items are found to be legitimate, then you won. Or did you? How much were the court costs and attorney fees? How much stress did this cause? Did it strain your relationships with your family?

I wouldn't want to deal with it. There are easier ways to make a buck.

Given that the rights owner's representative gave you all of their contact information, I would believe the notice they sent is legitimate. When competitors send those notices, they usually just give some gmail email address. No law firm operates that way, so you can pretty safely ignore them. But when they give you their address and phone number, you can easily check to see if it is legit or not.

If you want to fight them, be CERTAIN that your merchandise is legitimate. Nobody who is selling you counterfeit software in bulk is likely to ADMIT it is counterfeit. So do your own due diligence. If you go ahead with sales based on the ASSUMPTION that your source is legitimate and it turns out not to be true, then you are ROYALLY SCREWED. It will be YOU, not THEM who is in front of the judge ready to wet your pants.

And if your merchandise isn't legit, then look at it this way - you had some good sales for awhile, and now it is time to move on.

[MM78]

Here's your problem:

You appear to be reselling Microsoft
codes on Bonanza on a commercial basis as as business (multiple codes).

Your not selling the full retail software, your selling the Serial Numbers.

[stas]

Ok guys .I have already realized that this is not a competitor. So I stayed one type of product: Norton Antivirus. But it's not scary. I earn my in another area. It's more of a hobby that began with the necessary money for the racing simulator iRacing.
What do you think is worth bother with ebay stealtn for sale digital products Norton (key + link to download)?

[MM78]

Originally Posted by stas

Ok guys .I have already realized that this is not a competitor. So I stayed one type of product: Norton Antivirus. But it's not scary. I earn my in another area. It's more of a hobby that began with the necessary money for the racing simulator iRacing.
What do you think is worth bother with ebay stealtn for sale digital products Norton (key + link to download)?

Unless you have a well established Ebay Account, your going to have the same problems....

[unkown5454]

I'm surprised Bon.an.za didn't just take you down themselves. Why wouldn't this person contact the site admins to just have you removed?

[jeffweico]

The thing about those serial numbers is that one day when they figure out it is not legitimate, your antivirus stops working.

I bought a Norton key on DHGate a while back and it worked for about 4 months. Then it told me to re-register the software. I called them and they told me to take it back to whomever sold it to me because it was not generated by Norton. They refused to do anything but sell me a legitimate code. At full price. Under the threat of possible prosecution if I didn't pay. That STILL stings!

Although, in all honesty, I have to admit I was wrong to buy that key in the first place.So it was my own fault.

[ovidiu]

If you are selling keycodes only and not full boxed products, be aware that there are laws on the book that now make it illegal to sell the COA/keycodes components of software by themselves. This may be the basis of the legal threat.

[MrMoo]

This is my first post on the forums. I came across this thread when I searched for the text in a similar eBay message warning me to remove my listings for Norton software.

I question the legitimacy of the message in question and find it highly unlikely that companies would issue messages like this - rather than have eBay simply remove the listings.

Here is my message in full:

Hi,

I would like to kindly request you to remove your listings on Ebay for Norton software products with immediate effect. You are not an authorized Symantec reseller of this product.

We have been monitoring you for some time now and suspect that you have been selling illegal software on various online websites via different names. We have noted your IP Address and have been in touch with your ISP provider and Ebay.

This is our last and final warning, failure to comply will result in us pursuing legal action to criminally prosecute you to the full extent of the law. We will also advise our alliance member Symantec to take civil action on you to recover all revenue that you have generated from all illegal software sales of Norton products to date.

Failure to respond / comply within will result in us initiating enforcement action against you as appropriate.

James Bergstorm
Senior Risk Consultant
Global Compliance and Enforcement Team
Business Software Alliance

I especially like the fact that the sender used the same surname as the previously quoted message. Claiming to have access to your IP address is highly unlikely. eBay are surely forbidden from releasing such information - therefore making it impossible for them to have it and to contact your ISP.

The person sending the messages uses very aggressive/assertive language designed to scare anyone that reads it. I'm unsure if this is a tactic being used by a competitor. Linking to the official website or asking you to contact the official website can make the message seem legitimate without actually being the case.

I have simply requested that the person contact me via my email address as listed in the contact details of all of my listings. This message is clearly claiming something of a serious nature and therefore it would be unwise to discuss it further without verifying that the person in question is who they say they are.

Further information:
The message came from the eBay user: jambergs
Seen at: jambergs on eBay
The profile has a number of views considering that is an account with no sale/purchase history.

The previous message came from a Diane Bergstorm.
I checked out possible usernames and found:
dianbergs on eBay
Registered a month earlier. No longer registered with eBay. The profile page also has a number of views considering that it also has no sale/purchase history.

Receiving professional sounding messages regarding illegitimate software can automatically seem very real and worrisome for sellers - particularly when they threaten legal action and prosecution. However, when selling legal software - even when distributed digitally - you have the right to question the authenticity of the sender. You are well within your right to verify these people before simply complying with what they are requesting.

I'll report the message to eBay and post any further follow up.

(Also, sorry for bumping an old thread - I felt that it was more use that creating a new one)

[jeffweico]

This email does not seem legitimate to me. Phrases such as "I would like to kindly request" are not very professional and sound like a competitor to me. "ISP provider" is a redundancy, since ISP stands for Internet Service Provider. Did they get in touch with your "Internet Service Provider provider"? And the phrase "pursuing legal action to criminally prosecute you" is ridiculous, because NO private company, organization or individual can file a criminal case against you - only the GOVERNMENT can do that. They can only give their information to a government prosecutor, and it would be up to the prosecutor whether to take the case or not. No attorney would use that language and a professional at the BSA is also unlikely to phrase it that way. They may mention that selling illegal copies of software is a criminal offense and quote the law, but their wording it the way it was worded in that message is unlikely.

If the Business Software Alliance, which is a legitimate rights owner organization, wants to contact you, they will do it by email to the email address you have on file with eBay or Amazon - yes they CAN get your information - and include their contact information in their email to you. They don't typically register an account to send a notice through eBay. Also, they would have had eBay pull your listings. A phone number would be included on the original notice because they would WANT you to call them to discuss it.

A simple way to verify this would be to get a number from information for the BSA, call them and simply ask for James Bergstrom. If there IS a James Bergstrom there, it will not prove the email is legitimate, but if he does not work there, it WILL prove the email is a ⊗⊗⊗⊗.

[MM78]

Sounds like a phake email, Orginizations such as BSA don't use words such as "kindly", as jeffweico mentioned....it's not professional.

Also, the sender of the message has been a member since Nov. 2014....lol that just screams competitor.

[tempo9901]

Hi, anyone know where buy xbox live gold codes cheap ?

[MM78]

Originally Posted by tempo9901

Hi, anyone know where buy xbox live gold codes cheap ?

Wrong section....and no one is going to give you a source.

[MrMoo]

I'm posting a followup to my previous post a few days ago. I messaged back via eBay requesting that the person contact me via email. Obviously my contact details are displayed in all listings so it isn't hard to find. The response message was, again, a carbon copy of the message previously listed above (including typos) - with the exception of the brand name and such.

Full message:

We at the Business Software Alliance (BSA) defend the intellectual property of our alliance members (including Symantec) across the world with operations in over 60 countries. You can check our details at our website (BSA | The Software Alliance). Also feel free to call us at about your concerns on our UK hotline +442073406080

This is only the case if you are reselling a the full retail boxed product that you previously owned yourself. You appear to be reselling Norton codes on Ebay on a commercial basis as as business (multiple codes). In order to sell Norton products or licenses on a commercial basis you or your business have to be specifically authorized as reseller or distributor yourself by Symantec in line with the software license conditions. This authorisation to resell cannot be assigned or allocated via a 3rd party (i.e. your supplier)

We have checked against the register of Symantec's authorised reseller database and you are not on the list. If you have another registered trading name that Symantec would recognize, please let us know and we would be happy to recheck this against the register.

Reselling without authorisation is strictly prohibited under the license conditions and would be treated as breach of Symantec's intellectual property.

Kind Regards

The phone number is legit and is displayed on the BSA website. Again, this doesn't prove anything. I simply followed up with a similar response. I asked the person to contact me via email in an official capacity as I didn't like to discuss issues of a serious nature via eBay messaging.

The person responded:

Please feel free to give us a call at the number listed in earlier message. Alternatively please provide with your contact number and we would be more than happy to give you call to discuss this issue further

"please provide with your contact number" Really?

Again, I asked for the person to email me. I also requested that since they claimed to have my information (my IP address and 'ISP provider') that they forward this information to me. Under the data protection act any company holding your information can be requested to release such information to you.

Their response was another seemingly copy/paste job:

I note that you have ignored our previous warnings to you and continued to list the offending Symantec products here on ebay.

We have checked against the register of Symantec’s authorised reseller database and you are not on the list. Reselling without authorisation is strictly prohibited under the license conditions and would be treated as breach of Symantec's intellectual property.

We have provided you with adequate warning and time to take remedial action under the circumstances. You will not receive any further communication from me on the matter. We have now escalated the matter with our legal department and you should expect to hear from them or your local law enforcement agency in due course with regards to enforcement action

Kind Regards

James Bergstorm
Senior Risk Consultant
Global Compliance and Enforcement Team
Business Software Alliance

Still no official email, no actual response to my requests, and more threats. Companies have the right to request items be removed from eBay but I'm 100% sure that these requests are made directly to eBay - not directly to sellers via the messaging system. Another thing that I find slightly suspicious is that this person is using an eBay account registered in the UK. They also gave a UK phone number (taken from the BSA website). However, I have received these messages at 4:35am, 10:30pm and 5:15am - UK time. While that isn't necessarily vital, I find it strange that someone claiming to hold a "senior" position, with a company as large as the BSA, is sending out company messages during such strange hours.

I am 99% positive that these messages are not legitimate and have sent an email to BSA explaining the situation, included all messages, and requested confirmation that James Bergstorm is acting on behalf of the organisation. I'll post any followup here for anyone that's interested.

[Salvo]

I know linking is frowned upon, but I found the staff list of BSA's Global Compliance and Enforcement Team and Mr. Bergstorm is not listed. Nor is Diane Bergstorm (another name people have commonly seen in these MC999's)

http://www.bsa.org/about-bsa/bsa-staff/global-ap-team Global Compliance & Enforcement Team: BSA |The Software Alliance

[MrCommonGround]

Have you heard back from them yet MR.Moo I got the same message from Diane the other day...Did they actually take legal action and confirm your ip address

[grass_clipper]

In my case, the listing was removed very shortly after the buyer paid for the item BIN. I wasn't aware of any issues about reselling the item (legit and used), and I wasn't sure if the whole thing was just a mistake or just a competitor unfairly reporting my listing. In any case, I emailed the buyer afterwards, explained to them what I knew and what I thought happened, and asked them if they wanted me to send the item or refund them entirely (since ebay or paypal didn't refund the buyer automatically). The buyer said to "please send it".

In hindsight, I regret sending it. Did I put myself in some sort of jeopardy? I'm not worried about ebay suspensions; I'm worried about this software group. I could refund the paypal payment, but would that make any difference? What advice could anyone give me?