Horrendous buyer issue

[ooooo.halo]

Hi there everyone.
About 6 months ago, I made up 6 stealth accounts and they are all going strong. I made one of them a local one so I could sell furniture which has been a good earner for me.
Anyway 3 days ago I woke to a payment for two matching sofas. Buyer asked if i could deliver. I said I would free of charge.


Delivered the same day as payment. Got first sofa in and then found the second one wouldn't fit thru his door. Out of goodwill, I stayed with buyer for nearly 3 hours helping but it was stuck.
I had to walk away as I felt I'd done more than enough to help.


Since then, I've had threatening messages from him saying that he is contacting the police and taking me to court. He says it's my responsibility to get it in his house. I've sought advice and he is responsible as didn't ask for measurements before purchase.


He also stated in an email that he has had to knife the sofa apart to get it out of the doorway.
Last night I received a message from him saying than in 7 days when he can open a case, he will be disputing that the sofas arrived damaged.


Is the buyer going to win this. All the messages from him are in ebay messaging, even the part about using a knife to it. Surely ebay see these right? I can't imagine how he can get away with this. I'm so angry and upset

[james_112233]

If he paid through Paypal you don't have a leg to stand on. Take this on the chin and look at it as a loss in your business. It happens. Especially if you intend to do business for a long time.

Even if the buyer was happy and chuffed with his purchase but 3 months down the line filed a "non-receipt" claim he would probably win it as you have to provide evidence of delivery with a tracking number to Paypal. That's just how silly the system is.

When it comes to delivering or buyers collecting. Accept CASH or BANK TRANSFER on collection. That is the only guaranteed methods of payment.

EDIT: Don't let the dispute escalate to ebay as you may risk your stealth account. Just refund him as soon as he opens the case or offer a partial refund. Either way offer him money to go away.

[JohnWall]

Originally Posted by james_112233

If he paid through Paypal you don't have a leg to stand on. Take this on the chin and look at it as a loss in your business. It happens. Especially if you intend to do business for a long time.

Even if the buyer was happy and chuffed with his purchase but 3 months down the line filed a "non-receipt" claim he would probably win it as you have to provide evidence of delivery with a tracking number to Paypal. That's just how silly the system is.

When it comes to delivering or buyers collecting. Accept CASH or BANK TRANSFER on collection. That is the only guaranteed methods of payment.

EDIT: Don't let the dispute escalate to ebay as you may risk your stealth account. Just refund him as soon as he opens the case or offer a partial refund. Either way offer him money to go away.

Don't listen to this advice it couldn't be further from the truth. You have plenty of evidence to prove the buyer has received the item & that they have damaged the item themselves. They're either trying it on with you to get a partial refund or are just plain stupid.

[ooooo.halo]

Thankyou JohnWall.
I'm more than happy with the evidence I have got and just hope it works in my favour. I would be furious if he gets a refund from me when he has clearly stated he has put a knife to it.


I've googled this and my concern is paypal. People have claimed that they have won a seller case on eBay but then buyer opens a dispute with PayPal and usually that ends in buyers favour. Is that likely to happen.
I know that with stealth we try to always keep buyer happy but he has destroyed the item so why on earth should I do that.


Let's say he wins, would he have to pay for return postage.its obviously going to be something he cannot do as a courier would likely charge more than what original purchase was. Just wondered whether I could use that to my advantage and ask for it to be returned to me and call his bluff. Maybe I'm being melodramatic here but if he did return damaged, then I would call the police there and then
X

[james_112233]

Personally wouldn't risk it. I could also tell you that you have all the evidence needed to win a case but we all know how paypal works.

It all comes down to one thing. How much is the longevity of being able to sell on ebay worth to you.

[e2free]

Don't listen to james advice follow the John advice at least you will win the eBay case but make sure when buyer open the case you call to eBay and explain the situation.

I am sure when he will loose eBay case he will open claim on PayPal again you need to fight the case good chances to win specially call PayPal and say he lost eBay case they can see all this and normally make decision in favour of seller

[Verificationguy]

you may be screwed i would just go get couch and refund

[starengine]

@ooooo.halo
i feel for you mate
ebay + paypal are a bunch of uncaring shiites
refund
take it on the chin
my opinion

[james_112233]

I would have fought the case if my account was legitimate. Fact of the matter is you're on stealth. Why put focus on your account. Isn't that the whole point of stealth ... to stay under the radar.

[dallis]

You agreed to deliver it.

You didn't define 'delivery' well enough, did you?

I think most reasonable people would think 'delivery' of a couch means 'inside the dwelling', not jammed/stuck/blocking his doorway.

[ebaystealth1974]

Originally Posted by dallis

You agreed to deliver it.

You didn't define 'delivery' well enough, did you?

I think most reasonable people would think 'delivery' of a couch means 'inside the dwelling', not jammed/stuck/blocking his doorway.

Sh*t... to me, it means in your driveway or on your porch. Just like any other courier would do! lol

[JamesNorth101]

Originally Posted by dallis

I think most reasonable people would think 'delivery' of a couch means 'inside the dwelling', not jammed/stuck/blocking his doorway.

Not sure I would agree with that. Delivery means delivering it to the purchases. Not delivering and then installing.

RE the case. eBay you should be fine with. Your issue will be PayPal. What you should have done was just taken the 2nd sofa back there and then and refunded him (not much use in hindsight though!)

As for if you will with with PayPal. Its 50/50 in my experience. In theory when someone has opened and then lost a case on eBay they cannot then open it on PayPal but I have seen all too many times that not be the case.

The biggest lesson to take from this is that you should always take cash on delivery.

[ooooo.halo]

Originally Posted by Verificationguy

you may be screwed i would just go get couch and refund

He has since sent a pic of the sofa having been knifed apart. Not entirely sure if want it back lol

[ooooo.halo]

Originally Posted by JamesNorth101

Not sure I would agree with that. Delivery means delivering it to the purchases. Not delivering and then installing.

RE the case. eBay you should be fine with. Your issue will be PayPal. What you should have done
was just taken the 2nd sofa back there and then and refunded him (not much use in hindsight though!)

As for if you will with with PayPal. Its 50/50 in my experience. In theory when someone has opened and then lost a case on eBay they cannot then open it on PayPal but I have seen all too many times that not be the case.

The biggest lesson to take from this is that you should always take cash on delivery.

I've taken legal advice and I'm only responible to guys doorway. After that, I'm not responsible. Guy should have asked for measurements. Since had a photo of end result after knife to it. He is not doing himself any favours.
I've got people who will go to his house but I don't want the agro. All I want is for him to accept responsibility as not my fault.
What a nightmare.
I'm not gonna refund him. Maybe it's pride but I'd rather lose an account and fight him, than to give in. I still have more accounts up and running so i'l make more.
Thanks James. I'l take on the chin whatever happens. Not much else I can do I'm afraid xx

[ooooo.halo]

Originally Posted by ebaystealth1974

Sh*t... to me, it means in your driveway or on your porch. Just like any other courier would do! lol

Yes I've had this clarified. I'm insured to guys front door but when you enter the person's property, I'm not insured. I have the paperwork to prove that so I know I'm covered in that respect x

[rsot]

Originally Posted by ooooo.halo

He has since sent a pic of the sofa having been knifed apart. Not entirely sure if want it back lol

Recorded damage might assist you well on the pushback

[oompaloompa]

I do not understand the part about you not giving dimensions on the listing, was that an oversight? That is unheard of for any pro seller. Your legal advise is flawed, it could equally be said that you should have given out dimensions or how can buyer know if it will fit. Are you a business or private seller?

Your insurance about what you are covered to do, has very little to do with this case. I would not admit to helping buyer shove it through door anyway or you are complicit in the sofa needing destruction.

An email from buyer saying he destroyed the sofa, is the email the registered email of the paypal account? Paypal might accept it as evidence, you should fight it, as far as you can, as buyer did wrong thing in forcing sofa through door. He should have asked you to take the sofa away when you were on site, when he knew the sofa did not fit though. Buyers argument will be, that they did not know if it was going to fit or not, until it was too late and was jammed.

I can see both sides of argument on this one.

[ooooo.halo]

Originally Posted by oompaloompa

I do not understand the part about you not giving dimensions on the listing, was that an oversight? That is unheard of for any pro seller. Your legal advise is flawed, it could equally be said that you should have given out dimensions or how can buyer know if it will fit. Are you a business or private seller?

Your insurance about what you are covered to do, has very little to do with this case. I would not admit to helping buyer shove it through door anyway or you are complicit in the sofa needing destruction.

An email from buyer saying he destroyed the sofa, is the email the registered email of the paypal account? Paypal might accept it as evidence, you should fight it, as far as you can, as buyer did wrong thing in forcing sofa through door. He should have asked you to take the sofa away when you were on site, when he knew the sofa did not fit though. Buyers argument will be, that they did not know if it was going to fit or not, until it was too late and was jammed.

I'm a private seller and I don't feel I needed to state this in my listing. I'm just a person trying to make a few quid and sold 2 second hand sofas that were on my premises. It was his responsibility to ask for measurements, not me.
I've already had this clarified so I know I'm ok on this point.
I do see your point about the other matter. Unortunately i did help him for almost 3 hours out of goodwill but it wouldn't go in. I can't retract that because it can be seen in messages if ebay view them.
I'm actually feeling much calmer about the whole situation now and if he wins a case, am I right that I can argue for the return of it or could I collect it back.
Of course I don't want a knifed sofa back but surely I can have the one back that went in his house. I would happily go and collect because he would have to face me for what he has done to something that was mine.
What do you think. Do you think that I have a right to have the furniture back?
Thankyou for your time

[JohnWall]

Originally Posted by ooooo.halo

I'm a private seller and I don't feel I needed to state this in my listing. I'm just a person trying to make a few quid and sold 2 second hand sofas that were on my premises. It was his responsibility to ask for measurements, not me.
I've already had this clarified so I know I'm ok on this point.
I do see your point about the other matter. Unortunately i did help him for almost 3 hours out of goodwill but it wouldn't go in. I can't retract that because it can be seen in messages if ebay view them.
I'm actually feeling much calmer about the whole situation now and if he wins a case, am I right that I can argue for the return of it or could I collect it back.
Of course I don't want a knifed sofa back but surely I can have the one back that went in his house. I would happily go and collect because he would have to face me for what he has done to something that was mine.
What do you think. Do you think that I have a right to have the furniture back?
Thankyou for your time

I think what he was trying to say is eBay & PayPal policy is different to the law. Just because the law is on your side it doesn't mean you will automatically win the case as eBay & PayPal policies lean more towards keeping the customer happy.

Yes you can insist on the furniture being returned but it would have to be at your cost. You'd also need to peruse the buyer through small claims court if you wanted him to pay for the damaged item as more than likely PayPal will issue him a full refund.

[oompaloompa]

I sell the occasional unwanted item, cash on collection. I always give dimensions so not to waste anyones time. Being a private seller is in your favour slightly, what were return settings on listing? no returns? There are 2 types of dispute, not received and significantly not as described, then the third angle would be a simple 14 day return if that is your policy, but that does not apply to you if you stated no returns on listing, plus it is not a distance selling scenario, as buyer had chance to see goods and say something then.

What type of dispute is it - SNAD? It could go either way, it was actually not mis-described.

Also, getting paid by paypal got you this problem in the first place - always do cash on collection/delivery, the only risk you take then is a wasted trip/petrol.

I meant, your insurance cover, has little to do with the case.

You want the OTHER sofa back, the non-knifed one!? You have the right to get the sofa back, but it would need to be same one - plus why would buyer give you the good sofa, that is an argument I would pay money to see....

If you or me had a sofa jammed in our doorway, then what would we do? Live with it jammed there forever, or remove it the best way possible? The only thing you might want to try saying is, they did not need to knife it, and if it went in, then surely it could have been pushed/pulled out again - it is not a ring on a finger that swells up due to trapped blood! I mean my kid put the cat head-first in a vase once and we pulled it out after a while trying...

[dallis]

I want to be sure I'm hearing you guys right... you buy a couch, and when the delivery driver tosses it off the truck into the middle of the front lawn and drives off into the night you guys are good with that? That's what you're all saying?

I had a delivery service for years, and I know that you'd be on the horn in a NY minute screaming bloody murder and charging me back on your VISA!

BTW, this kind of stuff is exactly the kind of reason I hated the delivery business.

[ooooo.halo]

Who tossed it off into front lawn. Spent almostb3 hours helping the guy.
I have an update now will repost