Forum

Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Hi all,

Yes, it's Johnson & Pham again.

Received a certified C&D letter from them demanding $15,000 for selling Adobe Lightroom 5 sofware (bundled version) on ebay, which they claim was a counterfeit.

Some background: I'm located in an east coast state. I bought 5 sets of (Adobe Lightroom 5 + Hard drive) combo deals back in December 2014. I listed 3 on ebay in early February 2015, and one of them was purchased by an ebay user and shipped to a rented mail box in PA. Received a C&D letter a few days ago from Johnson & Pham.

Of course, lost a couple night's of sleep in the beginning.

With some digging, I found this post to be insightful, in my opinion: [Saved Comment] Adobe threatening to sue me over selling copies of Lightroom 5 marked not for resale

Basically, all their allegations hinges on one claim: the sofware in question is a counterfeit.

If this claim is true, then the seller who sold me the software in the first place will be held liable for the counterfeit. But that is unlikely. I called buydig.com's customer service and was explicitly told that any Adobe software they've sold are legal copies.

If the claim cannot be substantiated by them, then they're presenting false claim against me. This won't be supported by any court if they do bring this to one.

Either way, my understanding is that they don't have a valid case.

So here's my question: do I need to write them a letter in response with my argument, and demand them to provide further proof? Or shall I just ignore them because I don't think they have valid proof of counterfeit. And I remember reading somewhere that it's better not to respond them.

Thanks a lot for your attention and help!
Best regards

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Ask for legal advice from lawyers & solicitors, not from internet forums.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

shred the letter and send it back to them

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Please seek legal advise from a legally trained expert.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

This is NOT legal advice. I am NOT an attorney.

I would, however, avoid contacting them by yourself. Remember, they are attorneys and they have been dealing with these issues for years. They have expertise in these matters. You do not. If you try to handle this on your own, you could easily say or do something that will come back to bite you - HARD!

Given the fact that you have received a certified letter from their law firm, I would recommend speaking with an attorney who has experience in these matters.

I would also caution you that YOU are SOLELY RESPONSIBLE for anything that you sell - online or offline - and that claiming you thought the item in question was legitimate because the people who sold it to you told you so is not going to work very well. At least not in civil court. I doubt that the FBI is going to come busting down your door and send you to jail for 20 years because you were duped by someone who sold you a counterfeit. But you CAN be held accountable in civil court for damages because the burden of proof is much lower than in a criminal case.

I have no idea whether or not your item is a counterfeit, or if they just consider it bundled software that is not for resale, but either way I would not try to sell it again. I know nothing about BuyDig.com, but we are not talking about a huge company with a solid reputation like Walmart.com, BestBuy.com, etc. So, take what they tell you with a grain of salt.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Please post your question on a legal board, or better yet, hire an attorney. The advice I CAN offer is this:

Don't sell anymore copyrighted stuff on eBay. And if you feel like you must do so, at least go full stealth first.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Everybody's advice is good. Talk to an attorney. You're in deep trouble and you're going to need help digging out. 15K is nothing to mess around with.

First, though, I would immediately CEASE AND DESIST from doing this ever again.

This kind of nuisance action is a plague on the world, and it's happening everywhere.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

They are blowing smoke up you @$$. Do some googling on these guys. They are trying to scare you into sending money. The make millions a year doing this. They are not going to sue you nor do they plan on it. They send thousands of c&d scare letters every year. They only actually sue a handful of people per year when they have a huge slam dunk case.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

And i know this because one of my former sellers has told me about a time when he dealt with them..his lawyer told him to wipe his @$$ with that c&d letter until he was served with a court order to appear in court....that day never came and he never sent a dime to these guys

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

They will sue only if their expenses to catch you are lower than they are planning to win. If you have rock solid proofs that the software you've sold is legit, you can ignore them. But still, the best advice around is to contact an attorney. If you are 200% sure that your copies are genuine - you can eve counter-sue them for doing moral damage to you by their unlawful requests.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

When I was 18 I got a letter demanding $100k for posting britney spears videos on my music video website.

Besides being grounded for a month and getting my ass kicked, my uncle who was a retired "bank lawyer", called them a few times, got in some yelling matches, said we would counter sue, I guess just normal things lawyers like to do, and never heard a word from them again.


Lawyers like to send nasty threats but ohhh boy play their own game and the fun starts

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

I wouldn't worry too much about any of this. While it is always good to talk with a lawyer if you are concerned, it is not really necessary unless you are actually sued. You would know if this happens, because you would be served with a summons and a complaint.

Some lawyers abuse their standing as attorneys and demand all kinds of money for all kinds of things with the threat of "pay us or we will sue". Being sued is very intimidating to a lot of people. And certainly, it is always best to not be involved in a lawsuit. But I wouldn't allow them to terrify me. I have been sued before. It happens. Being sued doe NOT mean that you are in serious trouble. It means that you and another party have a difference of opinion and one side is going to ask a judge to make a decision.

The last poster mentioned receiving a demand for $100,000 for some music videos posted on his website. I would be willing to bet, if the case went to court, and user3657 LOST, the judgment would not be for anywhere NEAR $100,000. Lawyers always ask for more than they actually expect to get. That is how the game is played.

The other misconception is that a lawyer can order you put in jail. But they cannot. ONLY THE GOVERNMENT can pursue you criminally. Private companies and individuals have to take you to CIVIL court.

The bottom line is, stop doing whatever it was that caused the attorneys to contact you, if you were in the wrong. And don't feel that you have to pay them a certain amount of money just because they demand it. I could demand that you pay me a million dollars for answering your post - it is the same thing, an unenforceable demand.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Wow, didn't know that. Thank you Jeff.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

yes legal advice would be good. Another problem also is if they report you to eBay I hear that eBay will suspend your account and ask for invoices on where you got the items. if you are confident that you got them from an authorized distributor, than you should not have anything to worry about and if you have authorization to resell them. Than I don't see the issue.....Again seek advice from an actual attorney. i believe they give free consultation.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Jeff's right on.

No serious corporate attorney is going to pursue you over a measly 15K, unless you keep doing whatever it was that got you that letter in the first place.

Our local scumbag attorney group has been in business around 20 years, and I recently saw an article that said of the over 10K cases he'd filed in the first 10 years, he'd never once taken a case to all the way to trial, he'd settled out on every single one. :)

This is just like that.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Civil lawsuits can still hurt. Up to you OP to seek legal counsel.

If I had a nickel for every letter/threat by Johnson & Pham posted on these boards...

100% certain, it was certified?

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Take it to the bathroom with you after eating Chipotle. You know what to do with it at that point.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Never accept a certified letter from these jokers.

At a minimum they'll have to hire a professional and very expensive process server to ambush you instead of the local sheriff office's $75 process server.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

I think this is an important point. MOST attorneys WILL speak with you for a few minutes to get the basics of your situation for free. They will then give you your options, most likely outcomes and costs of pursuing each option and then you can make an informed decision as to how to proceed.

Edited to add: eBay does not necessarily act on ONE complaint. But if it is DETAILED they might. For example, if they get a buyer who complains that "the seller sold me a counterfeit DVD" not much is likely to happen, except that they will note the complaint. But if the buyer complains "the seller sold me a counterfeit. I know this because it did not come with the inserts or the rewards codes and when I called Disney, they told me to look for a number on the hub of the disc, but there was no number on it. Also, the printing on the DVD's and the cases looked kind of weak. Disney told me to get my money back from the seller" then eBay is MUCH MORE LIKELY to want to verify your suppliers. At least they are better than Amazon with these things. Amazon would just take the buyer's word for everything. eBay at least gives you a chance to prove your innocence.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

They sue everyone. They sued me, there in-house counsel for egay tell mr. pham to call so I rip his juggler out and shove them up his a## Do not talk to them, and counter-sue them with a muti-pronged lawsuit believe you can be

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

They actually served you? As in, you had to show up in court with a lawyer?

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

I sure would hate to have my jugular ripped out and shoved up my ass...please tell me this was a drunken post.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Thanks to all for your inputs.

Some updates:
I've decided to ignore it and lay low. However, I received a email from them recently. Basically, they just repeat the first letter, and stated that this email serves as a second notice, and a response is expected within 7 days.

Any thoughts or comments?

Thanks again

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Long time ago when i was 14 years old i sold counterfeit stuff on ebay. Had no idea it was counterfeit in the first place and as a 14 year old i honestly didn't care much. I got a 100 page letter from the company of the merchandise i was selling and boy was i scared when i saw that they were asking me to pay $15,000 to them and turn over all my stuff and the people who sold it to me and if i didn't i would be sued. Being 14 selling under my dads name/ account i was so scared to tell my parents what just happened i shredded the paper and stopped selling immediately. From day to day i had so much stress i said F it and i decided to call the lawyer and the # on that letter that i saved just in case but i couldn't reach him. So i decided to email him. I begged him not to sue me and that i will stop selling all this stuff and that i was just 14 years old and had no idea wth i was doing.

Days, weeks, go by and i am getting no phone calls, my parents still have no idea, which means nothing is coming in the mail. I have no idea if the emails ever got to him or if he was even the right person. It was a huge law firm handling this case i remember. Either way, i slipped through and got away by ignoring the letter basically.

In my opinion ignoring it completely is not a bad thing to do. I wouldn't take that email very serious either. I was so scared to receive anything i never checked my email just because i feared i would see them trying to reach me so i just avoided it and let whatever had to happen to just happen. But if they send another letter to your house in writing seeking further action then i would take it pretty serious.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

The problem is you were a minor...when I received my intent letter it was actually addressed to my parents that was my lawyers first question, who was it addressed to, because if it was addressed to myself(minor), it would of been dismissed in court the lawyer said.

If the software was legit(some invoices/receipts might even have the serial number on it), then they can claim whatever they want but you have not broken any laws.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

They had no idea i was a minor. The letter was addressed to my dad which the account was registered to.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

hi pebble,

I recently have the same problem and ordeal that you are going through. So ever since you laid low and they sent another 2nd notice email to you, what happened?

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

to the OP:

what was the outcome? Johnson & Pham just added me to their list.

I sold one Adobe software on bonanza for $60, then a couple days later Bonanza informed me they had to remove the software because of trademark or copyright infringement, blah blah blah. I complied and stop listing Adobe software since.

As I said this was in June...and thinking because I respected the law and stopped listing Adobe software, all was good...well so I thought...just today...September 5, 2017 ... Johnson & Pham sends me this notice via email and it sounded scary. Gee I just sold 1 software for $60, and they are acting like I sold $1000's. and the fact is I complied and stopped selling Adobe software since also makes this notice uncalled for. are they trying to kill me by giving me a heart attack? if yes, it almost worked.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Relax, they won't sue you if you stay low. Sue case causes tons of money and time, they won't go for it if they know for sure they can make a profit of it. I am not a racist but there are people selling ⊗⊗⊗⊗ MK bags LV bags in the street of New York City but no one sues them. Why? cause law frms know they cannot afford to pay the fine. Relax, go for a jog and take a nap.

STAY LOW!

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

It's also a lot harder to get the ID of some random person selling goods on the street....they deal in cash...no paper trail.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

We need to send Johnson and Pham a special poop package.....

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

Hi,
So if your account is totally stealth there is no actual way they can ever trace it back to you right?

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

They could subpoena PayPal for the bank info.....I'm not 100% sure. Let's assume they could and if they do so, they will have the real information on the seller. All of this is just an assumption, we don't know how far this law firm is willing to go to file a lawsuit.

I once received a letter from Johnson and Pham for selling a legit item my wife had bought direct from the Company, had receipt and all....told them to shove their letter up their you know what.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

This thread is nearly three years old, you know.

Of course they can figure out who you are.

The question is would it be cost effective to do so. If you've been really sloppy it might even be pretty easy. It only would take one mistake to let a diligent searcher know who you are.

If you've been careful it might take court orders, and those cost money and time.

In a practical sense, for a one-off incident, nobody's going to be bothering you.

Re: Johnson & Pham again! Adobe Lightroom 5 bundled sofware...
 

For other users involved in selling foo-food, Johnson and Pham are paid millions to work for their clients.

If they decided to pursue a case, that is exactly what they will do.

When you sell an item, you have a duty of care to make sure it is OK to sell. Be careful and protect your own back. Take legal advice if needed.

At least one user here is doing time in a Federal institution.
:peace: