Forum

Going to Sue
 

Seriously -

I was with eBay for over 15 years, (almost) no problems even though I knew issues existed and I was always grateful they did not hammer me.

I did, at one time, allow a friend to open an eBay account using some of my info. That account was shut down because eBay changed its policies about what could be sold. (Was selling a type of used clothing eBay later decided was not to be allowed, and shut down the account rather than asking her to remove the listings.)

Fast forward to more recent times.

I'm selling on and off over the years, mostly items I have picked up a yard sales and/or personal items I no longer want. Some old stock from a family member's business.

Also doing a lot of buying.

Came upon a drop shipping type deal where I verified all information as best as I was able. Looked and felt legit after I checked it out and

BAM --- VERO

Okay, I had no idea.

Cost me a bundle.

I stopped selling those items the moment I got the first notice and 7 day suspension.

About a month later, got a 30 day suspension for those same items, even though I had not listed any since the first suspension / notice.

I called and complained and found somebody who would listen and they lifted the suspension.

Excellent feedback all along, by the way. 100% and Power Seller until the end.

During this time frame I was selling another, high priced item. Legit item, very clear what it did and did not come with.

(Manufacturer refurbished phones, delivered direct from manufacturer, with warranty, but no accessories.)

The "No accessories" was prominent in the list, same size, bold, arrows, the entire number. This was a straight up deal.

Hitch on this -

Could only ship one per customer / address.

So I had to ask buyers for a different address at times, or cheerfully refund their money, which I did.

One buyer negged me because I could not deliver, even though he had his money back.

Two other buyers negged me because of the no accessories I offered to refund upon return of the phones even though the listing was clear.

I had to cancel quite a few sales because of those types of issues.

eBay first restricted the account because they found a tie-in with the decade "not my" account.

Then eBay cancelled me because of that, the "not as described," and the "history on the account."

Okay, fine. I knew I couldn't be free of eBay problems forever, the odds were against it.

I had two buyers who had bought and paid.

They tried to write me to get a tracking number.

Response came back, "No longer registered."

Now, if you have just spent $750 and find your seller is not registered, you're going to file a complaint, right?

Yeah, so would I.

So they did.

And I put in tracking information.

And they must have "escalated" immediately, rather than waiting.

Because eBay gave them their money back, even though the phones were on the way (in fact, one signed for theirs the same day).

So I got on the phone to eBay.

"You gave them their money back, they have the phone."
"We don't care."

Spoke with PayPal, because of course now I was negative (having paid my cost for the phone).

They sympathized, but could do nothing.

Wrote to the two buyers who have new phones for which they did not pay.

1. Return the phone or
2. Pay for the phone pursuant to our agreement or

Yeah.

I'm going to report the theft *and* sue them in small claims court.

And in the small claims action I will name eBay as a defendant as well.

Can't see not winning when I will have:

1. Proof of sale
2. Proof of delivery
3. Proof of non-payment

But what a pain in the tush.

Of course I'll be going stealth to return to selling.

I still have personal items I want to sell, fun stuff, and the like.

Plus the phones.

Wish me luck - and let me know if I sound "stupid" here, or that I am missing anything.

But please do it nicely.

;)

Re: Going to Sue
 

What does the tracking informations say for the items? can you not claim from the post office?

Re: Going to Sue
 

So I just read a long post that really says i want to sue two buyers who conned me>

Is your account stealth?

:rolleyes:

Re: Going to Sue
 

Good luck, if this works out please tell us about it. Honestly, I had a VERY similair situation to you and would of liked to sue as well, but can't right now. Good luck man!

Re: Going to Sue
 

Tracking was by FedEx - shows delivered and signed for.

Since they were delivered, I don't see being able to file a claim.

Re: Going to Sue
 

LOL! No, my account was not stealth.

All future ones will be.

Oh, and my joy will be in naming eBay as a defendant.

I can understand why somebody might like a $750 windfall this time of year - I don't sympathize with them for keeping it, but can understand it.

eBay on the other hand was "We don't care."

I will do one letter to eBay first giving them a chance to make good on the proceeds from the sales, but I don't see them sending me a check.

Re: Going to Sue
 

Thanks, Pikachu!

Will definitely keep the forum posted.

I didn't mind *any* of it (well, I did, but you know what I mean) but the out and out theft by eBay.

Re: Going to Sue
 

No, no, no.

You take a different tack with this. You do not outright name ebay as a co-defendent yet.

For starters, it will be costly to engage with them. Hold off with filing court documents.

NB, I am not saying do nothing. ;)

:ranger:

Re: Going to Sue
 

Suing is everybody's 'dream'.
Unfortunately doing so is a lot easier said then done.
Yes you have proof you sent them a package - but you don't have proof that you sent them the actual item. I.E. - the defense of the person youre suing would be "yes I signed for a box but it was empty so I filed a dispute with ebay - and look - ebay agreed with me and actually suspended this seller's account - proof Im in the right and this guy is actually out to con me. And Im not the only one he did this to".
Just saying - youre making it seem like a simple matter. Be prepared to the fact it might not be so simple. Especially if youre fighting someone in another state and have to travel there to file your charges.

Re: Going to Sue
 

GreenBean - what is your alternative suggestion?

Slokor - I would be filing in small claims court. I do not have to travel. The contract was entered into here. The phone was shipped directly by Apple. There is an invoice and packing slip.

I know it is not as simple as it sounds, but it is also not all that difficult either.

I would be telling the truth.

Do you think the buyer(s) would be willing to lie?

They are the ones who would have to look themselves in the mirror.

I know I am naive, but I really hope they will write back and say a check is on the way.

Here is the letter I sent:

As you are aware, your payment for this phone was refunded to you by eBay.

As such, you should not accept delivery of the phone unless you are willing to pay for it.

You may pay for the phone directly, by sending a check to:

NAME
ADDRESS

Or by PayPal to

PAYPALEMAIL

I would prefer a check as I have already had to pay a lot of fees on this matter - in fact, if you will send me a check I can reduce the cost of the phone to $725 and you'll save $25.00. Check should be made payable to me, NAME.

If you do not want to pay for the phone you should REFUSE DELIVERY.

If you accept delivery you MUST pay for the phone.

If you keep the phone and do not pay it will be the same as theft, and I am sure you do not want to get involved in all that.

Please reply to this email and let me know what your intentions are.

Again, your tracking number is:

622904200717

https://www.fedex.com/fedextrack/WTR...s&r=g&fdx=1490

And the phone will probably be delivered to you on Friday the 28.

Then....

YOU SIGNED FOR YOUR PHONE AFTER RECEIVING THIS EMAIL.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU PLAN ON SENDING ME A CHECK AS BELOW OR PAYING VIA PAYPAL.

WE HAD A CONTRACT WHERE I SOLD YOU A PHONE FOR $750.

YOU STILL OWE THE PAYMENT EVEN THOUGH EBAY REFUNDED YOUR MONEY.

YOU ARE NOT LEGALLY ENTITLED TO BOTH THE AND THE MONEY.

IF YOU WOULD RATHER SEND THE PHONE BACK, THE ADDRESS BELOW WILL WORK.

LET ME KNOW BY THE END OF THE WEEKEND WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO DO.

--------------

I know in part I am blowing off steam - but seriously, these individuals are going to steal $750?

They didn't intend to steal the phones when they bought and paid for them - is there no chance they will do the right thing?

As for naming eBay....

They'll have to come here to defend.

You know what that will cost them?

Me .... I'll just have to pay filing fee and schedule a court date at my convenience.

Court is not like Judge Judy - my good feedback will be just as irrelevant as the account being closed.

Re: Going to Sue
 

Op you write this like it is the buyers fault your account got screwed up. Have you ever bought an item from a seller and than got the "the person you bought this from might be a criminal, a liar, a con or all the above. Do not communicate with them or do anything they ask you to do them to do" 99 percent of the time ebay or paypal only do what is in the user agreement you agree to when you sign up. I understand frustration but you are barking at a big tree

Re: Going to Sue
 

You see this more and more in the US I am afraid.. it is called "friendly fraud", this is because of lack of morality and the people who control the FED Reserve, causes this to happen, due to inflation of living standards and deflation of the USD. This is the main cause why people are doing this kind of fraud because the costs of products are higher because the US FED printing vasts amounts of money.

Even if you went to court, they can say we cannot pay the money because we are on WELFARE, OR we have CHILDREN or some other BS excuse, they could say as slokor said is I had nothing, just an empty box, they can TWIST it against you, and you end up paying the costs and more courts costs on top of it! ~ Remember this!! And even if they admitted they have the product they can SAY they can only pay back 1.5usd/month or something, the courts in the WESTERN world are only for the criminal's. The problem is morality and this is correlated to the people who control the money supply.

"I care not what puppet is placed upon the throne of England to rule the Empire on which the sun never sets. The man who controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire, and I control the British money supply" ~ Nathan Mayer Rothschild

Re: Going to Sue
 

Overall its a sucky situation, since now you got to waste your time and effort to get your money back etc, even if you win it was a waste of time for you and inconvenienced you. But I wish you the best of luck, most likely you would win the case but overall still sucks that happened to you.

Re: Going to Sue
 

Oh, I know.

And as I look at listings (I am looking for a VCR for my better half) I am not buying quickly because I do not know whether something I buy is going to work - I could simply buy and then do SNAD whether it works or not. But I won't do that to somebody.

Re: Going to Sue
 

Prepare for the worst case, you might loose your time and money but you will definitely waste some of their time and maybe teach them a lesson. In your situation I would talk to a lawyer and then decide if I had enough time, money and a chances to win I would go for it.

Re: Going to Sue
 

I find that pursuing this sort of thing is an utter waste of time and tons of negative energy...
For the amount of resources it will take to follow and pursue legal action you could make leaps and bounds more focusing on increasing transactions.

I consider this a cost of doing business. Happens every single day of the week.

Re: Going to Sue
 

An inactive member here, JSR, when ebay made one of his accounts "Unregistered" lost several thousands of dollars, actually drained every penny out of his bank account via paypal.

Ebay contacts the buyers and encourages them to open cases or opens them automatically. He had hundreds of them. From hundreds of $25.00 items to dozens of $300-$1000 items.
It is NOT your buyers fault and it sucks, and listening to someone like me say, move on, open accounts and sell product does not make it feel any better.

Re: Going to Sue
 

I really dont understand why almost everyone here is saying 'dont bother its a waste of time' when really it is a matter of principal if not about the money.
If it was YOUR money and not the OP, i am sure you wouldn't care for responses like this either.
You will end up with nothing if you just let people get away with murder.
Some things ARE worth fighting for..

You could always trying paying a lawyer to write a letter to them and it might scare them enough into paying but if it were me and i sold MULTIPLE phones for £725.. i am sure i would be doing something similar..

Re: Going to Sue
 

Principle is a dangerous fine line IMO.

Re: Going to Sue
 

Did you have the option to intercept/re-dirct the phone back to you?

Re: Going to Sue
 

As far as I'm concered yankee is 100% correct IMO. If you guys siding with OP honestly think its simply a matter of principle than your in the wrong business. Every single business that is successful and thrives in this ever changing marketplace FACTORS in shrink. Yes they try to prevent it as much as they can, some better than others..but what OP is suggesting sounds silly to me. Yes it sucks but I have nothing else to say as yankee already said it.

I know I'm not without the money but regardless you should factor in these things if you plan on doing business in the first place.

Re: Going to Sue
 

Its nice that some people here are in such a good financial standing that they are ok with writing off 750 dollars and 'move on'!

I had this on a smaller scale (and smaller country, uk) but I sold a very rare drum & bass record (lol) and got the transaction reversed after he received it. I obviously had his name and address so found out his number, called him up and let him know that I lived close enough so would be popping over to pick up the vinyl or the money. He soiled himself and re sent the money haha.

Not something I would recommend, it was a time when I carried myself a lot differently haha!

Re: Going to Sue
 

I would wait to see what the buyers do first. Going to court never works out as well as we hope it does.

Depending on the details of what happened, you might have to file a lawsuit in the buyer's jurisdiction, not your own. Otherwise, you would be forcing the buyer to travel to YOUR neck of the woods to defend themselves and that may not fly - again, it depends on the circumstances. At least that is what would happen in the US, I have no idea if the same thing applies in the UK.

And when the courts get involved, you never know WHAT can happen. Just because you have a specific idea of what the outcome should be does not mean that the judge will necessarily agree with you.

I am not saying that the OP should not go to court, but it should be a LAST RESORT, not their first option.

As far as suing eBay goes, good luck with that! eBay has ARMIES of lawyers just WAITING for people to sue them. I always hear people complaining that eBay acts in an illegal manner, sends illegal emails etc. But the fact is, they are probably on solid ground, legally. Everything large companies do is vetted by their lawyers first. Every policy, the wording on every letter... ALL of that is approved by their legal department. So, your case against eBay may not be as solid as you think.

I would have taken a softer approach with the buyers, emailing them to explain you had an issue with eBay, and asking them VERY POLITELY to return the phones or pay for them outside of eBay. If that didn't work, my next email would have been a little bit harder, again asking for a return or for payment. I would have added something about it not being morally right to keep both the money and the phones. Only on my third email would I bring up reporting this to the police or suing them in court. And then, I would have wrote the emails VERY professionally.

I get the feeling that in the OP's case, she allowed her anger at eBay to spill over into her emails to the buyers, who were probably offended by her tone and may now decide that she can go you-know-what herself for her money or her phones. That is psychology 101. If you want something from someone, ask nicely first. Appeal to their sense of fairness. If they refuse to respond, THEN you slowly raise the stakes and do it in a reasoned manner. Because in the end, a reasoned and well thought out argument laying out potential consequences is ALWAYS scarier than a bunch of threats, made off-the-cuff.

You have to remember that eBay was the actual cause of this situation. When they suspend your account, they send all of your active buyers (I think within the last 30 days) an email saying they had to end the auction and close your account for security reasons that may involve fraud, illegal activity or whatever and that they took the action to keep the eBay community safe. They encourage the buyers to file claims for refunds.

I think these emails are stupid on eBay's part, because it makes them look bad. But they are probably allowed to send them legally, because SOMEWHERE in their user agreement is language that allows them to do so. I guarantee it.

Anyway, the buyer sees that email and files a claim, mostly because eBay just scared the hell out of them and they don't want to end up being out the money for their purchase - especially since this was NOT a $10 item.

Next thing the buyer knows, they get an email from the seller, written in the heat of the moment threatening court and the police if they do not do this, that and the other. The buyer, already not happy with the whole situation is VERY LIKELY to react negatively to that email and just decide not to deal with the seller at all. And they probably feel justified in doing so, because eBay told them to.

Now, if the email from the seller was calmer, asking for their help because of an eBay dispute, then they might have reacted much differently. I would have used something like "Hey, this happens to many people at one point or another on the eBay platform, and I'm just trying to get by like anyone else and how would you feel if you were out both your item and the money and I'm asking you to help me out and do the right thing here..." Not that exact wording, but you get the idea.

And that would leave open the option of sending further emails that would actually be read. Because now, when the buyer sees the seller's email, they are going to think, OH, another email from that nutcase again! *I* wouldn't bother with it. But, then again, I would have probably looked over the phone and decided whether or not I wanted to keep it and paid the seller if I decided to keep it. But *I* also know how eBay works, where the buyer in this situation probably does not. We sellers may be distrustful of eBay, but they actually have a FAIRLY GOOD reputation amongst the general public. We eat, sleep and breathe this eBay stuff, but they don't. We realize this happens to lots of innocent sellers, but they don't - they just think you are a scammer, because a company they generally trust TOLD THEM you are a scammer.

I wish the OP luck, of course, and hope that these buyers do the right thing. I am not AGAINST the OP, I just think they went about dealing with this in a way that was counterproductive.

Re: Going to Sue
 

Just to add, the LAST thing the OP would want is an eBay lawyer to show up in court. Because they will bring up a few things.

1 - The seller, by his own admission, sold counterfeit items at one point, although he claimed not to know they were counterfeits.

2 - The seller, again by his own admission, brokered a deal between some company and a few individuals where the company was limiting the offer to one per person/address and the seller was advising his buyers to use multiple addresses to get around that rule.

3 - eBay allegedly linked his seller account to a closed account and had some cases of buyers filing claims for items not being as described.

When you take all of this together, it does NOT look so good for the OP! eBay would use these facts to paint the seller as an opportunistic scam artist who is upset that they stopped him from scamming people.

I am not saying that is what the OP DID, but that is the way that eBay will make it look.

Re: Going to Sue
 

My attorneys starts at $350.00 an hour. A cheap attorney is $150.00 an hour. The amount of time it would take to meet with and attorney is hundreds of dollars an hour.

Maybe that is a different perspective.

Basically what happened is, YOU as a seller had an issue. Ebays policies made you have a significantly larger finical loss in negative energy, wasted time and attortneys fees.

It happens. Odds are the buyer will never contact you and the odds are you will never get the funds even if you have an attorney, but for sure it will cost you.

Also keep in mind, They already did pay for the item, they wanted the item, the item was deleivered etc.. In the court of law, This is pretty hard to beat.

What you are saying is that every time you get a chargeback and the buyer gets to keep the item and your fees, you are going to sue.

Unfortunelty it just does not work out that way 99% of the time.
It sucks.

Re: Going to Sue
 

I did not say that the OP must go to court over it, i simply said you cannot expect him to write it off and do nothing after all it is not just 1 item for $725 , he talks about multiple items.

I know NO ONE here would be okay with losing this kind of money. Unless you are Donald Trump!

Re: Going to Sue
 

Best of luck with your decision OP - ranting and venting helps with the frustration, I hear you

Re: Going to Sue
 

Amen to that!

Re: Going to Sue
 

OP still has options.

And rsot is busy feeling for him.

That's a great comfort.

:violin:

Re: Going to Sue
 

:pound::pound::pound:

Re: Going to Sue
 

Haha tushay.

Again what yankee said makes 100% complete sense to ME. No one wants to lose this amount of money BUT again there are very few options in this scenario. All of who sell on eBay know this already, don't act like you don't.

Regardless of the fact I would be "okay" to lose the amount of money doesn't negate the fact I for one couldn't realistically afford all the court fees/lawyer fees that would entail. Its not cost productive. Smart business men/women weigh these things in before going into court. Thats why if you have a credit card default with say 2,500 unpaid, they probably wouldn't bring you to court..why? Its simply not worth it on their end.

Its just the nature of the business were in. You can pout and feel sorry for yourself or just move and on and try to prevent this to ever happen again. Dropshipping already had been discussed as a poor method of delivery for reasons like this. Not trying to even change topic and go there but its the truth.

I'm not trying to act like I can just "afford" to loose 750 but again like I said no company, business what have you WANTS shrink to occur but they do realize its the world we live in and it happens, it sucks.

You can either keep it moving, focus on how to make that money back or lose even more. Thats the reality of the situation. OP probably could have taken the time spent on this thread making that money back already, IMO

Re: Going to Sue
 

I can't bring myself to read this whole thing, but I'll just say, that ebay agreement you agree to, to sell on their site, states that if you bring legal action against them, you have to do it in their county, in California........so..........

Re: Going to Sue
 

OP you said ""The phone was shipped directly by Apple.""

so you were just drop shipping ??

im only asking because i think it is against ebay rules. but i could be wrong! just trying to help =]

Re: Going to Sue
 

Every long term forum member I've seen advises against drop shipping. The reason being is its ALWAYS best to have the product in your possession to prevent issues like this. Regardless of the supplier its ALWAYS best to have your products in your control, for obvious reasons :)

Re: Going to Sue
 

I technically drop ship. I have warehouses across the country and abroad I have never set foot in and most likely never will, but I still have the manpower to keep control.
It works very well until a train wreck occurs lol Such as overselling.

Re: Going to Sue
 

I'd send the letters make them official to the Buyers, even though it's not,there fault, in the letter make it look like they will be sued and put in there proof the items were signed for, and put it on official looking letter head

Your best bet would be to scare the buyers just to pay you, because if you go after eBay you won't have enough money to last and win, the person with the most money usually will win out, and even if u win you lose

And if the buyers don't get scared and send payments make some stealths , very easy to get that money back from eBay without charging them head on

Re: Going to Sue
 

OP has blindsided himself with the concept of suing in a court of law, imo.


He should prepare letters asking for payment IF he checks his facts more carefully.

He says FedEx delivered the items & they were signed for. If this is so, then it may be that a crime has been committed IF the person who signed for the items is also the person claiming non-receipt. That needs investigation.
His past history on ebay is toxic to any law suit. Quite simply, his credibility will be laughed out of court.
He needs to change his tactics.

At the very least, he may recoup monies. If not, he has taken a positive business step to deal with the issue rather than the beat the head against the wall of a law suit with ebay as a co-defendant.

Our business plans must accomodate losses.

But how we get over those losses is how well our business lasts long term.
It is a matter of spending energies constructively.

:peace:

Re: Going to Sue
 

In my experience, The buyer did not even open a claim. It was auto prompted by ebay, but who knows without being the buyer.

A phone call explaining the situation to the buyer would be my only action. The buyer may not even realize they have the item and been refunded.

Re: Going to Sue
 

Yea what happened is when eBay shuts the Account down they kick you too while your down and they send emails out to all your buyers saying all the bids are cancelled

So now the buyer is thinking ok the transaction is cancelled I need my money back they may of went to message the seller and seen he was not registered and they opened a case

And in this situation it's automatic and the funds are given right back to the buyer no questions asked

So even though initially it's not the buyers fault, now that they have the phones they should pay the money

I didn't read everything so I'm not sure if the op reached out to the buyers yet and asked if they can resend the funds back

If he did first reach out and the buyers refused than Id go after them now, because in all reality you would never see a dime of that money from eBay unless they wanted you to have the funds , but suing eBay head on is a losing battle , they will wear u out until you have no money left

So you go after the buyers and send them or get a lawyer to send them an official letter and that may be enough to scare them and send your money back

Re: Going to Sue
 

As long as you know the quality :)