Forum

Paypal SNAD on items outside of ebay?
 

Seems to begin come november?

"PayPal's extension of its buyer protection policy, which is similar to eBay's program. Buyers using PayPal are currently covered for Items Not Received, and beginning in November, they will also be covered for items received but significantly different from what was described by the merchant ("Significantly Not as Described," or SNAD). "

Yeah got the email about it 2 weeks ago. Paypal just keeps making things harder. :faint:

Further digging of their own grave it seems.

I've wondered for some time now... how will they determine if truly SNAD? I'm sure it will require return shipping. Seems fraud will just be more easily accessible to those already oh so entitled souls...

So if I sent a buyer an invoice for "Goods" without putting anything else, just the amount, could the buyer file a snad claim?

Yes they can. PP started protecting buyers from SNAD on November 1st.

damn, so they could just say the item was snad, and send back an empty box? they keep making it tougher and tougher on sellers

This is the exact point at which paypal should have some exception in their bureaucratic system... A couple years ago I had this happen but the other way around: 1700 dollars paid for an empty box. Because I filed an 'item not received' when it was really a 'significantly not as described' I was left holding the back... 1700 bucks up in smoke. Repeated calls to paypal saying 'but this guy stole 1700 bucks from me!' with only silence or a roundabout on the other end of the phone. Complete BS.

But paypal policy has changed since then. What I'm getting at here is that paypal will eventually envelope their policy to protect sellers from getting back empty packages..... but until they do someone should be able to be reached on the phone in paypal who can say "hey, your right.. this is completely ridiculous, I'm going to put a stop to this right now". If paypal leaves enough sellers holding the bag, they will lose money and customers. If they lose enough or get enough complaints, then they will change their policy. So complain to paypal. Every chance you get. Those customer service forms and questionnaires are gold, I fill them out in every stealth account I have.

If anyone experiences a non-ebay SNAD dispute on an item that was sold after November 1st 2010 please PM me or post your experience here. I'm curious as to how this system will work. What's preventing the buyer from just sending back a box full of dirt?

Just got hit by a scammer! I got a snad on saturday morning saying the item was a ⊗⊗⊗⊗ and it isn't so i uploaded the original receipt and pictures to paypal and escalated the case. Yesterday i got an email saying that the item should be returned to me and i should give a full refund once the item is returned to me. I got the tracking a couple of hours later, it was shipped via fedex and its to be delivered today at 12pm and i see that the weight fedex says its on 1.0lb which should be 4.6lb to be exact... If i would have known about this policy i wouldn't have used paypal lol. Just got had for $400


This is what happens when you take a 1 month break from the forums lol.. lesson learned.

Don't put a return address on any of your shipments. The buyer will ask for a return address. You give them your POBox or a friends house etc... Paypal will see only the zip code, (privacy laws) so the buyer looses cause they sent it to somewhere else other than your (stealth) address. You win the SNAD.
What's new about this is if you read ebay's buyer Protection policy it says you must have a signature on the return. So sending it anywhere won't cut it without a signature.

You have had this work first hand?
And I assume you do this as a backup so you can look at return and if its real do the refund. Not all refunds are scams. But nice if when one happens you are covered

All my returns are sent elsewhere. And yes it worked for me twice.

This is great...well for us...not "regular" users on ebay/paypal
See, WE can have the item delivered back to us (address not on pp protection), and if we get scammed, we say they didn't ship it to the right place. BAM!

But for the average joes out there, they may be scammed, PP will say...well he shipped it back...your problem. Customer gets money back AND the product, seller loses EVERYTHING, PP just don't give a ****!

Its not so much that PayPal wants to hurt sellers. They actually make more money the more we use them. Problem is we get caught in the crossfire with scamming sellers. The amount of fraud done through PP is almost certainly mind blowing. So in order to protect themselves, good people get hurt. And that they dont care about as long as it lowers their loss

As with anything PP related, this too will get abused at some point and they will just make the buyer protection higher and add more risk to seller. That much you can be sure of....

is this 100% true? id really like to know, theres some shady people out there.

Oh, you bet if I EVER get NASD and they buyer returns the item. I will open it in front of a Postal worker and if it is "dirt" or empty, will have her sign a form BEFORE I leave the post office stating what she saw.

Then I will sue the Butt off of Paypal. I am itching at the chance anyway! They have NO RIGHT to get involved with NASD! They are playing bank and they are not! Can't wait until they get shut down and Ebay as well! Then we can all go back to money order, checks and someone on this site will create a new site where sellers and buyers are equal!

Snad
 

Sold item. Sent to address confirmed by PayPal, sent USPS, Tracking number, insured, have delivery & signature confirmation. Buyer filed SNAD, claiming contents were missing. Buyer refuses to take packaging & contents to USPS for insurance claim. Buyer has done nothing to help themselves in resolving this claim. Submitted evidence of shipping & receipt, yet PayPal is going to refund buyer's money. Will be filing legal action as recourse. Do not use PayPal. There is no Seller Protection. All buyer has to do is make the claim of SNAD and they win. End of story. Am learning the hard way that this is the latest scam. Am taking my business elsewhere. All buyer has to do is mail it with a tracking number and their money is refunded. There is no requirement for a confirmation of delivery when the buyer sends something to seller. If they can provide the tracking number stating they've mailed something, that initiates the refund process. Once this starts, seller has 10 day window to file an appeal.

Are you 100% sure about this and can you back up your claims?
Because I really don't want to believe this horrible new policy. :faint:

pretty much hit the nail on the head. Only thing they want to see is a confirmation number showing that you actually sent the product back. Once they gave a confirmation number your screwed, might as well head to a lawyer office while on the phone with paypal

PayPal SNAD
 

Yes I am positive. I have filed complaints with Attorney General's offices and BBB, as well as an IC3 report against PayPal as they refused to accept factual evidence that the buyer lied, and it is not within PayPal's regulations to be acting like a financial institution. PayPal is not interested. All they request the buyer to do is to return whatever they claim to have received from you. If they claim SNAD, they can ship you a box of dirt and buyer will receive a 100% refund. PayPal "required" the buyer to send the goods back to me and required my signature before refunding the money. I received an EMPTY BOX and never signed for it and they still refunded his money. As far as E-Bay, because it is the sister company of PayPal, E-Bay mandates PayPal to be the one and only form of payment used. You can take all of the precautions available and believe you are protected, but the bottom line is the seller is the only one who is at risk of losing financially. My best advice is to not sell anything you aren't willing to give away. The other advice I have is to sue PayPal and your buyers who pull this scam in small claims court. Despite what PayPal claims, the state where the item was physically located is the state that has jurisdiction. Small claims court eliminates the opportunity for PayPal and the buyer to have access to a lawyer unless you agree to those terms. Small claims is easy enough to maneuver through provided you organize your notes and evidence, remain calm and stick to the facts. PayPal also hates getting complaints from BBB in San Jose (file with the one in Silicon Valley) As long as you provide a detailed account of what transpired, BBB will contact PayPal and request they respond. PayPal will issue some flimsy, canned response and all you have to do is respond with the facts. Make sure you cite specifically what they did and didn't do (especially if they didn't address that in their response to you). The more people stand up to this organization, the more eyes will start watching and perhaps at some point the feds will take them on in terms of regulation. I'd love to testify before the House or Senate on their little scam they've got going, as they are just as culpable as the buyer in this case.

Damn, this is horrible but thank god for getaway stealth accounts!

Let us know how this goes.

It's not that bad if you're selling lower priced items like $50-$100, I always do like Hercules does except I have my stealth address on the label which they can send it back to since I don't need it anyway since it's not that valuable to begin with.

Dont know what its like in the US but in the UK it happened to me after i had opened the package i got a few lumps of wood instead of a guitar.

phoned paypal and police the police then had to fax documents off too paypal i won dispute alsmost immediately

It was a lot of hassle police were initially not very helpful with sending faxes to paypal it took a lot of phone calls and i had to go down and try to keep pressuring them as has been stated you only get 10 days to get your evidence.

i did it with 3 days to spare i was getting worried because the officer who came out was off and dragging his heels when he was in

as i say though you can win if this happens to you i think if you get police evidence asap paypal will not go against the police

This is an update to my original post. I received a phone call from the police department this morning. The detective informed me that they paid the buyer a little visit this morning and confronted him about the gold coins. He confessed to having them and had them stored in his safe deposit box at his bank. He was given a free ride to the bank where he retrieved the coins and turned them over to the detective who has FedEx'd them back to me and they should arrive tomorrow by 10:30 am. In the meantime, EBay has suspended my account for refusing to pay for seller fee's concerning this transaction, so tomorrow, their CEO will be getting a letter from me along with the details from this case. As it turns out, this buyer has scammed others on PayPal/EBay and has gotten away with it. I'm also following up with the BBB, as that is the only agency PayPal seems to keep on its radar when issues arise. I have numerous emails where PayPal claimed to have investigated this case and based on their "investigation", they believed the buyer, and completely ignored the police reports I filed along with supporting evidence, as well as follow up calls from both police agencies. It will be interesting to see what their response is as they prepare to eat their words. Once again, do not trust that PayPal or EBay will listen to the police, nor will they abide by the law. They aren't regulated and until more people stick with it and file complaints, they will continue their piss poor business practices that are unethical and if my hunch is right, illegal. Who knows, maybe you will see this story on Dateline.

I wish I was more knowledgeable in situations like this. I've always believed they are fine with illegal activities that they know they can cover up and dismiss or make it so much of a hassle that people will just give up on confronting them. I've told so many friends to never sell anything expensive unless you are willing to take the risk of losing it all or contacting the police when a scam happens. Since my complications with scammers in the past few years, I have stopped selling products over $50-$60 and ones that can't really be damaged easily or are fragile. I'm glad to hear someone was able to push it all the way and fight back.

eB ay and Pa yP al live in a world with practically no rules.

(GreenBean might kill me for grave digging)

But I haven't sold something OUTSIDE OF EBAY in a long time. Does this mean that buyers are now protected during outside of eBay transactions?

:eek:

Reasonable thread to bump. At least you have posted in it before...not like the new breed that dredge 'em up for post count LOL.:doh:

And to answer you questions....bottom line is yes/kinda of..

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...nline_shopping
We're here to help you shop with confidence wherever you are online - either at eBay or any other site that accepts PayPal. That's why we created PayPal Purchase Protection. *** See eligibility.***

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...e%20Protection.

SECTION 13 in the above URL has the latest definition. (20th Septmeber).

'Genius, read it carefully as it has varied 4 times since you posted in this thread.
PM me if you want :pop2:

Yes. They have the whole section where you can select various SNAD reasons for sales from a standalone website. And then seller is forced to take a return.

But its really not a big issue. Any credit card purchase is the same thing anyway, you cant stop a return. Its very rare compared to eBay silliness. Its part of selling online. To keep your credit card processor happy is pretty important. Best to avoid claims. So fighting a cranky buyer off ebay is just as pointless as on ebay. But again, its very rare as long as your product is ok. You could sell gold for the price of rice and someone out there is always going to want a return. You can at best try and talk them down or work it out. But if they want a refund, they will get it. Paypal or not...

I've used PP's buyer protection outside of ebay, when I received NASD and item not received.
I buy lots of items from all over and I've never been let down if someone tries to sell me told cr*p, or not bothering to send anything at all.

So as far as I know it works just the same.

It helps when trying to find a reliable supplier.

Yes.


And it sucks.


I will say the disputes are not as open and shut... and it is easier to handle than an ebay transaction dispute.


I believe this is because you would have to have some kind of contact to the customer that is NOT through ebay... so you probably know the person somehow.