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Business software alliance
 

Hi I have just got a message from the business software alliance stating to take down my listings otherwise they will put a case against me .... is this something to be afraid of?

Re: Business software alliance
 

Post up the message - how legit is it? Are your products counterfeit? Do you have proof of authenticity? So many questions...

Re: Business software alliance
 

Yes, they have been all legit, but I've been using diffrent accounts.. maybe that's why they putting a file against me?

They didn't even ask for evidence or proof of the softwares.. quite confusing maybe it's a competitor as it was from someone called Diane bergstorm, and the account the message was sent from was made 2 days ago.

Is this how they approach? Am just worried as they will come to my house :ballchain:

Re: Business software alliance
 

If they are all stealth accounts how could they come to your house? The only way they could track you is through your bank account or ip (not if you are using tethering)?

Let me know how you get on.

Re: Business software alliance
 

Well all I've been doing is connecting and disconnecting the router and using another account.. as the ip changes when you connect and dis connect... can they find out where I stay like this?

Re: Business software alliance
 

If the rights holders do not want you selling their item then the best thing to do is to find a new item to sell :thumb:

Re: Business software alliance
 

In the USA, if you have legit items, you would just file a counter notice on their takedowns and they will leave you alone after a few tries. In the UK, not so sure. It's bullying, pure and simple, and they can get away with it because most people will go along and not fight.

Re: Business software alliance
 

Please elaborate.
Thanks in advance!

Re: Business software alliance
 

This is a serious at-your-own-risk thing.

No one wants to get into a laws.uit with the BSA. That's why the typical person is going to bow down.

Re: Business software alliance
 

This is a serious at-your-own-risk thing.


Untrue, if you have legitimate items. First sale doctrine means they cannot prevent you, in most cases, from selling the software. But they illegally use provisions of the DMCA to take down listings, knowing most people will not fight it.

A counter notice means they have ten days to respond with a lawsuit or court order, or eBay puts the listing back up. Now they are not going to file any lawsuit knowing they will need to explain themselves in court. BSA is a industry group whose job is to mostly illegally bully people on eBay under the false claim that 99.99999% of software not sold on Adobe.com, Microsoft.com, or Best Buy is counterfeit.

How do I know this? From filing over a dozen counter notices over the years, and winning every single one of them, including takedowns from BSA, Microsoft, and Adobe. Also check out tabberone.com for more on copyright on eBay.

Re: Business software alliance
 

So, from what you're saying, anyone can file a counter notice and win? Even if they are selling count.erf.eits, as long as the BSA and other software copyright owner don't respond with a laws.uit?

How does anyone prove what is real and what is not without having physical copies? I understand frivolous DM.CA takedowns happen by the thousands every day. They cannot respond to every counter notice so obviously some will make it through.

I still say it's at your own risk especially when so many people have no clue if what they possess is real or not unless they bought it directly from a big box store.

As far as First Sale doctrine is concerned, there is no law that says EB, AZ, Crai.gs.List or any other ecommerce site has to allow you to operate on their website. If there was, there would be no reason for all of us to have to create millions of stea/lth accounts. We could all just call the internet police to force any website to let us sell our crap.

Re: Business software alliance
 

So, from what you're saying, anyone can file a counter notice and win?

Sure, if the rights owner or their representative don't respond, you automatically win.

Even if they are selling count.erf.eits, as long as the BSA and other software copyright owner don't respond with a laws.uit?


Yes! The point is, the BSA and other agents are often quite aware of what is, and isn't counterfeit. They specifically target regular people selling legitimate copies of software instead of going after counterfeit sellers. In fact, hundreds of counterfeit Microsoft and Adobe software items from China are sold on eBay every day, and not a peep from BSA, Adobe, or Microsoft. They don't care about these because they have real law enforcement agencies working the backend. The purpose of the BSA is solely to bully people into thinking Best Buy or Office Depot is the only legitimate option for purchasing software. It is NOT to protect anyone from counterfeits.

How does anyone prove what is real and what is not without having physical copies

Companies like Microsoft actually let you send in samples of software to be certified as genuine with a certificate you can post on your listings. Companies like Adobe take a hard line, and an illegal one, that they pretend the First Sale Doctrine arbitrarily doesn't apply to their software.

I still say it's at your own risk especially when so many people have no clue if what they possess is real or not unless they bought it directly from a big box store.

My advice is for people who are absolutely aware of what they have. Most software items are purchased from a big box store anyway.

As far as First Sale doctrine is concerned, there is no law that says EB, AZ, Crai.gs.List or any other ecommerce site has to allow you to operate on their website.

First Sale Doctrine has nothing to do with EB or AZ. It has to do with preventing companies like Microsoft from arbitrarily preventing you from selling your legitimately owned software. EB and AZ can still decide that they don't want you on their site for whatever reason. However, eBay has "graciously" provided a way to fight one type of takedown, and we should use it when we are in the right.

Re: Business software alliance
 

I get what you are saying. We are on the same page. Just looking at it from different angles.

As long as people can prove what they have is real, then counter. Where it goes from there is up to EB and the rights holder.

I wanted to clarify First Sale doctrine because there has been big arguments about it in the past and people were confused thinking it meant they have the right to sell anything they want online.

The DM.CA massacre that has been going on all over the internet for the past few years is just sad. Websites, businesses and peoples' lives are being destroyed because everyone is automatically guilty until proven innocent which is not the law by any means. I still see no end in sight because I am reading new cases every single d@mn week.

Re: Business software alliance
 

I totally agree with you unknown. My advice is ONLY for legitimate software, which is hard enough to pass by eBay and software industry Nazi's. Anyone selling counterfeit software can go STRAIGHT to hell, in my opinion. They are the ones responsible for giving companies the momentum to pass the DMCA monstrosity in the first place and creating copyright headaches for small and big entities alike.

AND, court opinion is always changing. Just recently, a decision involving a previously litigated Autodesk lawsuit was handed down, opining that if the EULA says the software may not be resold (Autodesk's EULAs are written by the devil himself), you may not resell it. It's a constantly changing landscape with landmines hiding left & right. And in addition, in a few years, all software will be digital only anyway, with essentially no reselling of software possible anymore.

Re: Business software alliance
 

@aimhigh666...have you been using your house as registered address for eb? Meaning that your address is on file?!?

Re: Business software alliance
 

Hello .. I got the same email today ... Pls let me know if anyone found out whether this person is real and in deed from BSA etc.

Re: Business software alliance
 

Yeah, it's very real man... i had the same thing on ten stealth accounts last year, didn't respond until i got trading standards on the door step. They found me alright and i was going to get royally screwed. Luckily i was in process of moving out and a couple of weeks later went traveling to America. Still have sleepless nights thinking my door is going to get knocked now! Avoid the VERO! :(

Re: Business software alliance
 

Did they charge you? Will they try searching your house for any proof?
I think i need to start listing from Internet cafes.

Re: Business software alliance
 

Thats really not going to stop law enforcement finding you if they want to...

Best thing to do is only list genuine items.

Re: Business software alliance
 

The thing is I was listing genuine items, how can they even state I wasn't? They have no proof of my products..

I really don't kno how these people work its more like bullying.. They left no contact number or anything.. I can't call just message.. ive had 2 people message me both with the same surname.... "bergstorm" so it does seem a bit fishy..

Re: Business software alliance
 

If you are listing genuine items and you have all the receipts to prove that then I would not worry too much.

If there is a rights holder that wants your items to stop being sold on eBay then you would be best to either find a new product, or try to get their permission to sell the item on eBay.

Re: Business software alliance
 

That's pretty much everything in a nutshell, In the end....the Rights Owner has 100% of the right to take the items down, even if they are bored...it doesn't matter.

Re: Business software alliance
 

Hello.
I'm from Russia. Sell in Bonanza.com
Today me send this message:
Written some sort of nonsense. On any other sites I not sell. IP address from my provider is dynamic.
Before that there has already been mentioned Diane Bergstorm.
Has executed as she wanted and deleted listings.
But now I am in doubt. Maybe it's competitors?

Re: Business software alliance
 

Stas, are your items legit?

You do not need to be an authorized anything to sell Microsoft software. As long as it is not counterfeit, no one can do anything. Especially in Russia, where this isn't exactly one of their top priorities.

Re: Business software alliance
 

Product legal, but I'm not authorized by the seller, therefore consider it illegal.
I asked about the absurdities of the message. That's what I was told:
I hope someone it will be useful.

Re: Business software alliance
 

Not much to add to what they have said really.

Either become an authorized reseller or find another product.

Re: Business software alliance
 

The deal is, the First Sale Doctrine still exists. If your items are legitimate, there is no way they can put you in jail. And, YES, you CAN file a counter-notice to a DMCA takedown. All of that is true.

But the rights owners can make your life a living hell regardless of the legitimacy of your items. If you go to court and your items are found to be legitimate, then you won. Or did you? How much were the court costs and attorney fees? How much stress did this cause? Did it strain your relationships with your family?

I wouldn't want to deal with it. There are easier ways to make a buck.

Given that the rights owner's representative gave you all of their contact information, I would believe the notice they sent is legitimate. When competitors send those notices, they usually just give some gmail email address. No law firm operates that way, so you can pretty safely ignore them. But when they give you their address and phone number, you can easily check to see if it is legit or not.

If you want to fight them, be CERTAIN that your merchandise is legitimate. Nobody who is selling you counterfeit software in bulk is likely to ADMIT it is counterfeit. So do your own due diligence. If you go ahead with sales based on the ASSUMPTION that your source is legitimate and it turns out not to be true, then you are ROYALLY SCREWED. It will be YOU, not THEM who is in front of the judge ready to wet your pants.

And if your merchandise isn't legit, then look at it this way - you had some good sales for awhile, and now it is time to move on.

Re: Business software alliance
 

Here's your problem:
Your not selling the full retail software, your selling the Serial Numbers.

Re: Business software alliance
 

Ok guys .I have already realized that this is not a competitor. So I stayed one type of product: Norton Antivirus. But it's not scary. I earn my in another area. It's more of a hobby that began with the necessary money for the racing simulator iRacing.
What do you think is worth bother with ebay stealtn for sale digital products Norton (key + link to download)?

Re: Business software alliance
 

Unless you have a well established Ebay Account, your going to have the same problems....

Re: Business software alliance
 

I'm surprised Bon.an.za didn't just take you down themselves. Why wouldn't this person contact the site admins to just have you removed?

Re: Business software alliance
 

The thing about those serial numbers is that one day when they figure out it is not legitimate, your antivirus stops working.

I bought a Norton key on DHGate a while back and it worked for about 4 months. Then it told me to re-register the software. I called them and they told me to take it back to whomever sold it to me because it was not generated by Norton. They refused to do anything but sell me a legitimate code. At full price. Under the threat of possible prosecution if I didn't pay. That STILL stings!

Although, in all honesty, I have to admit I was wrong to buy that key in the first place.So it was my own fault.

Re: Business software alliance
 

If you are selling keycodes only and not full boxed products, be aware that there are laws on the book that now make it illegal to sell the COA/keycodes components of software by themselves. This may be the basis of the legal threat.

Re: Business software alliance
 

This is my first post on the forums. I came across this thread when I searched for the text in a similar eBay message warning me to remove my listings for Norton software.

I question the legitimacy of the message in question and find it highly unlikely that companies would issue messages like this - rather than have eBay simply remove the listings.

Here is my message in full:

I especially like the fact that the sender used the same surname as the previously quoted message. Claiming to have access to your IP address is highly unlikely. eBay are surely forbidden from releasing such information - therefore making it impossible for them to have it and to contact your ISP.

The person sending the messages uses very aggressive/assertive language designed to scare anyone that reads it. I'm unsure if this is a tactic being used by a competitor. Linking to the official website or asking you to contact the official website can make the message seem legitimate without actually being the case.

I have simply requested that the person contact me via my email address as listed in the contact details of all of my listings. This message is clearly claiming something of a serious nature and therefore it would be unwise to discuss it further without verifying that the person in question is who they say they are.

Further information:
The message came from the eBay user: jambergs
Seen at: jambergs on eBay
The profile has a number of views considering that is an account with no sale/purchase history.

The previous message came from a Diane Bergstorm.
I checked out possible usernames and found:
dianbergs on eBay
Registered a month earlier. No longer registered with eBay. The profile page also has a number of views considering that it also has no sale/purchase history.

Receiving professional sounding messages regarding illegitimate software can automatically seem very real and worrisome for sellers - particularly when they threaten legal action and prosecution. However, when selling legal software - even when distributed digitally - you have the right to question the authenticity of the sender. You are well within your right to verify these people before simply complying with what they are requesting.

I'll report the message to eBay and post any further follow up.

(Also, sorry for bumping an old thread - I felt that it was more use that creating a new one)

Re: Business software alliance
 

This email does not seem legitimate to me. Phrases such as "I would like to kindly request" are not very professional and sound like a competitor to me. "ISP provider" is a redundancy, since ISP stands for Internet Service Provider. Did they get in touch with your "Internet Service Provider provider"? And the phrase "pursuing legal action to criminally prosecute you" is ridiculous, because NO private company, organization or individual can file a criminal case against you - only the GOVERNMENT can do that. They can only give their information to a government prosecutor, and it would be up to the prosecutor whether to take the case or not. No attorney would use that language and a professional at the BSA is also unlikely to phrase it that way. They may mention that selling illegal copies of software is a criminal offense and quote the law, but their wording it the way it was worded in that message is unlikely.

If the Business Software Alliance, which is a legitimate rights owner organization, wants to contact you, they will do it by email to the email address you have on file with eBay or Amazon - yes they CAN get your information - and include their contact information in their email to you. They don't typically register an account to send a notice through eBay. Also, they would have had eBay pull your listings. A phone number would be included on the original notice because they would WANT you to call them to discuss it.

A simple way to verify this would be to get a number from information for the BSA, call them and simply ask for James Bergstrom. If there IS a James Bergstrom there, it will not prove the email is legitimate, but if he does not work there, it WILL prove the email is a ⊗⊗⊗⊗.

Re: Business software alliance
 

Sounds like a phake email, Orginizations such as BSA don't use words such as "kindly", as jeffweico mentioned....it's not professional.

Also, the sender of the message has been a member since Nov. 2014....lol that just screams competitor.

Re: Business software alliance
 

Hi, anyone know where buy xbox live gold codes cheap ?

Re: Business software alliance
 

Wrong section....and no one is going to give you a source.

Re: Business software alliance
 

I'm posting a followup to my previous post a few days ago. I messaged back via eBay requesting that the person contact me via email. Obviously my contact details are displayed in all listings so it isn't hard to find. The response message was, again, a carbon copy of the message previously listed above (including typos) - with the exception of the brand name and such.

Full message:

The phone number is legit and is displayed on the BSA website. Again, this doesn't prove anything. I simply followed up with a similar response. I asked the person to contact me via email in an official capacity as I didn't like to discuss issues of a serious nature via eBay messaging.

The person responded:

"please provide with your contact number" Really?

Again, I asked for the person to email me. I also requested that since they claimed to have my information (my IP address and 'ISP provider') that they forward this information to me. Under the data protection act any company holding your information can be requested to release such information to you.

Their response was another seemingly copy/paste job:

Still no official email, no actual response to my requests, and more threats. Companies have the right to request items be removed from eBay but I'm 100% sure that these requests are made directly to eBay - not directly to sellers via the messaging system. Another thing that I find slightly suspicious is that this person is using an eBay account registered in the UK. They also gave a UK phone number (taken from the BSA website). However, I have received these messages at 4:35am, 10:30pm and 5:15am - UK time. While that isn't necessarily vital, I find it strange that someone claiming to hold a "senior" position, with a company as large as the BSA, is sending out company messages during such strange hours.

I am 99% positive that these messages are not legitimate and have sent an email to BSA explaining the situation, included all messages, and requested confirmation that James Bergstorm is acting on behalf of the organisation. I'll post any followup here for anyone that's interested.

Re: Business software alliance
 

I know linking is frowned upon, but I found the staff list of BSA's Global Compliance and Enforcement Team and Mr. Bergstorm is not listed. Nor is Diane Bergstorm (another name people have commonly seen in these MC999's)

http://www.bsa.org/about-bsa/bsa-staff/global-ap-team Global Compliance & Enforcement Team: BSA |The Software Alliance