Forum

Recieved cease and desist letter
 

I received a cease and desist letter today from a lawyer representing a large corporation due to alleged copyright infringement. We sell @@@@ products from china shirts and hoodies with there brand logo (its a big car company). They are also demanding a cease-and-desist declaration along with a payment amount. We sell these items in our own webshop with '@@@@@' adress on the website. The letter was also sent to our (@@@@) address, and my email. Adress is based in the EU, the lawyer too but another country. I understand that if I don’t respond, this could go to court. But would the court be interested enough to try to find my real address, for example, through the payment provider? What do you think?

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

who hosts your website?

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

was it a german "abmahnung"? if yes , was it addressed to correct or wrong name?

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

It is not the court,it is the Big car company and its lawyer.
Why are you selling ⊗⊗⊗⊗ stuff?

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

I host my website with a large US web hosting provider that uses Cloudflare as a proxy. Yes, it was a German "Abmahnung", but not in my name. They don’t have my real details. I’m not worried about the company; they won’t find out who I am, but a court probably could. Why do I sell this stuff? Like everyone here—because of $.
I’ve received letters like this at my real address before and, of course, paid because there's really no other choice. I just wonder what they would do if the letter were returned as undeliverable.

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

you should just take down the items but you should not establish any contact with them , just sell as you did before just without the items they complained about

your biggest risk here is not a court but when they see the details are bogus and the letter came back they will likely file a police report (strafanzeige) but not because they want the police to stop your sales but in order to file with the police for file release later (akteneinsicht) and there they would find all necessary details about you , especially the details about who receives payments to which payment systems and bank accounts

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Oef.... one thing for sure is to stop selling these immediately

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

They could find you via your webhost provider.

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

if the data are stored in germany the police will have full access , I know a seller who sold an item on ebay and the buyer filed a police complaint so he was invited to the police and when he came to them they already had copies of his bank statements showing his ebay payments and they even asked him to provide proof he is running an official business as otherwise they would have to forward his details to the tax authority as well

and regarding looking into police files by third parties (akteneinsicht) , it is really easy to do - anyone who can prove they have a justified interest in the case can get those details , they just need to hire a lawyer and they will do it for them for peanuts , it costs like 100-200 euros and if a lawyer is already involved they can do it for free to get the case moving

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Of course, I immediately removed the affected product. A few years ago, I had a similar experience with Amazon, where a lawyer representing Amazon requested my data and the number of products I had sold. My Amazon account was suspended, but I never heard anything further from the lawyer. I don’t believe Amazon actually passed on my data back then, so I doubt that any company in the US would provide a lawyer in the EU with customer data for privacy reasons. I’m less certain about German authorities, but I can't imagine they would make a big deal over a trademark violation, especially since the products were removed. I’ll continue to keep quiet and wait to see if I receive any official communication from an authority.

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Stop selling the product immediately they will get you taken down, if you are selling on the platforms like eBay or Amazon, they will get the accounts shut down, they will prosecute you and if you have a website it will be taken down as well.

It is not worth it, I thought I could beat a large international corporate, it cost me a lot of money, I had to close 2 companies and they got a $17 million award by the courts.

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

can they go after the company in CHina which makes the ⊗⊗⊗⊗ ?

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

removing products is best , later they could be sold in a different place. the only real issue here is if the seller has a german establishment as germany is very convenient to press money out of sellers through lawyers and courts

with non german sellers they are more careful as expenses and risks are higher

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

They got me for a patented product that was generic. They got all my information on the marketplace website and everything from the payment processor. I had to settle but it is negotiable. $17 million? What kind of money are you dealing with...

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

No they can't - China manufacturers are handled internally in the country...

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Is the bank account under your name? They normally would just follow the money.

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Amsterdam is a place where many counterfeit items landed for European imports,and the customs will destroy them,I have seen pictures of whole shipments being trashed,whoever import these items suffer the loss ,not sure what kind of penalty they have to put up with as well?

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Solid advice about stopping the activity and not contacting them

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

if they want to sell at a different place,better not on internet,you know the saying,you see one cockroach,you know there are more.
sell it at a local flea market

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

You guys in UK and EU sounds like the cops have access to everything?

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Cops have been known to take action on counterfeits at local flea market

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Update:
Last week, the criminal police suddenly showed up at my door with a search warrant related to the aforementioned brand, which filed a complaint against me for trademark infringement. They probably got my address from Stripe. I had a few test shirts lying around at home, which they confiscated, along with shirts from other brands that will also be informed about the situation. Unfortunately, my PC was on at the time, and they found the shirt templates on it. However, they only took pictures and did not confiscate the PC.

There’s a lot coming my way now. I was aware of the risks before starting my business. Guys, watch your backs—it can all happen so fast.

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Hopefully you just get off with a warning

You would think with how things are the police would have better things to do with their time

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

you are doing business in the wrong country , although this may happen to anyone , germany has a much higher risk than others as they open criminal enquiries for any complaint they receive and they do hundreds of thousands of home searches per year even for small violations

I can only recommend you to go to a different EU country and close the business down in germany

as far as the consequences are concerned you better take an attorney now and ask him to get a copy of your files from the police

the police will certainly send samples to brands to find out whether they are counterfeits and they will evaluate your turnover and send the details to the tax authority

it does not matter how many shirts you had at home they look at sales data and if necessary they contact the buyers to get the items from them , if all items turn out to be counterfeit they will contact all buyers and may ask them to turn over the received items

if you do not have a criminal history you should be able to get away with a warning and a fine without going to jail

but unfortunately your accounts where you sent money to your bank from are gone , they will evaluate your bank statements and send an enquiry to all marketplaces where you sell so that you will need new accounts and preferrably in another EU country

additionally if you have property/car/assets/bank deposits in your name you should get rid of them now and urgently because the brands will take you to court and will be trying to get hold of all assets you have , they usually check in advance so if they see nothing they may not act

tax authority finanzamt works slowly but if you should have had significant turnover which you did not state in your tax returns they will be demanding taxes plus fine , this is another reason to get rid of all assets now and set up residence in another EU country

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Agree that 100% you really do need to talk to a lawyer at this point if you have not already

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

I was actually warning about the police in one of my posts above

it is not a 6th sense though , I am just familiar with how they do business in germany , such companies always file a police complaint if they did not manage to get compensation

they do it specifically in germany because it works there well , in most other EU countries it is a difficult process so that they usually just use VERO to get items and possibly the seller removed

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

The good thing is, they didn't have access to the website or accounting records, so they don't know how much or to whom I sold. I only sell in my own shop, not on marketplaces. Taxes were properly filed. Around 10% of the sales were branded shirts; the rest were legal designs. They saw this during the search as well. I'm now waiting to receive letters from the brands. They will probably sue me for damages, but I wonder how they plan to do that if they don't know the extent of the damage they suffered.

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

They dont have to tell you the extent of damages .
It is not like you sell 1 shirt,damage is $xx,2 shirts damage is $xxx.
where are you?China or Germany?
As to someone suggested you sell all your assets,if they are just bank accounts,stocks,turn them into cash or gold.
This sounds serious,the police actually come to your house and take copies from your PC and seize the merchandise
You said it is a car company,is it German,-MERCEDES,PORSCHE,BMW?

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

I will say a prayer for you. years ago I received a cease and desist from beachbody. I think from p90x and shaun T insanity workouts. either way I never responded to the letters and stopped selling that stuff altogether this was like 2013.

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

they usually ask to provide that information so you would need to figure out what you are ready to provide as the law contains an obligation for you to cooperate

if there are no problems with taxes your main problem for now is the criminal case , they were likely asking questions during the home search and have given you an invitation to an interview - that would be a police interrogation

make sure you do not tell them anything and do not go to the police , instead hire an attorney and they will contact the police on your behalf , from that point police / prosecutors / court would not contact you directly but only through attorney

it is important to avoid jail time , for this reason make sure not to say anything to anyone except your attorney

as a suspect you are not obliged to go to the police or incriminate yourself or make any statements but any information you provide can be used as evidence against you

if you receive an invitation to interrogation from the prosecutor's office you are obliged to go otherwise the police will come and bring you there - make sure to go with attorney , do not go alone , do not say anything

and finally you do not discuss anything with your attorney through email or phone but only personally in their office , german police regularly tap phones and intercept messages sent to attorneys , although it is illegal they would be allowed to use it in court

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

In USA,IRS can ask Ebay for your sales records,they did when they audit a dealer "s income tax return.
So can the police

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

The criminal complaint came from one of the largest German car brands, but we also sold products from other major car brands, including shirts, which were also taken. They will be informed. What would be the better option: converting all the money into gold or Bitcoin? During the search, I didn’t say a word. Thanks to all of you for your answers.

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

with money you can take a basket of several liquid methods , just make sure it is not registered in your name in a bank or elsewhere and also not in a safety deposit box registered in your name

the worst case scenario is if all these companies get court verdicts against you for sum that you can not afford , in this case it would better to move to another EU country

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Do you need the money for living expenses like rent,food,gas,insurance>
You can prepaid your landlord if you intend to stay ,prepaid auto,insurance and buy some debit cards for small purchases.
In USA,grocery stores often discount their debit cards.
I agree,move to another country,your sign said Switzerland/Malta,Corsica

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

his situation with other countries is a lot simpler than for an american because he has EU citizenship and can choose from 20+ countries to move to , he would not require immigration docs there and all these countries are in close proximity

his main problem is the criminal case , he can not move away officially as long as the case is open as this could be interpreted as flight and may bring him to prison , a judge would likely sign an arrest warrant without checking further as change of residence to another country or unknown place is usually considered as flight by default

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

Her sign said Switzerland,thats not in EU,so she can go back there.

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

murdered_by_ebay has laid out a lot of info - time for lawyer seems in order

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

This is scary,having police come into your house and seize merchandise and take pictures of what you have on the PC screen.
I would not spend any money on lawyer,just pack up and leave the country ASAP.(and quietly,leave no trace so they can find you)

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

this is logic of hardcore criminals who already prepared flight routes

joe sixpack would not go anywhere so quickly

Re: Recieved cease and desist letter
 

it's scary enough the feds actually knocked on his doors