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Old 10-21-2016
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Question Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

I do not want to scare anyone with this titles, is a part from an article I was reading to see if paypal has any "pattern recognition" technology to understand that you are the same seller, by looking into your country, previous paypal users you sold in the past, and prices used, except from the information discussed here. Is this possible? To connect past transactions to new ones (even if you are very careful with listings) according to whom you sold in the past and get blocked for no "reason"? Anyone that has an experience like this?
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Payfriend View Post
I do not want to scare anyone with this titles, is a part from an article I was reading to see if paypal has any "pattern recognition" technology to understand that you are the same seller, by looking into your country, previous paypal users you sold in the past, and prices used, except from the information discussed here. Is this possible? To connect past transactions to new ones (even if you are very careful with listings) according to whom you sold in the past and get blocked for no "reason"? Anyone that has an experience like this?
NO. But i think they can track your mouse pointer. Like a fingerprinting. Of course they also track your IP , used passwords your name combined with your date of birth. But not something to SFI. as it will be useless.

On PayPal you can work just with your mouse. you log in, the password is already saved,etc...

on ebay on other hand they can use some keyboard fingerprinting. it is unique for 97% people.

but on paypal maybe... mouse pointer...(we all like to play with the stupid rat, no?!) ...type of transactions you get,etc.. but not something to fancy

Why? let's say you and me and 1000 people are selling "gardening tools" on ebay. those 1000 accounts will be linked toghther. same buyers, bla bla bla
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

LOL, Track your Mouse Pointer? How Gods Earth did you come up with that?
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Mouse pointer theory rocks

Thats some serious business man - hardcore

I have never heard anything like and I dont think I ever will.
I feel honoured to have read your post

Thats the best thing I have ever read in my life..... respect for that man XxX
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Passwords is the one that got me when I first started out, burned account that way, I should have read the stealth guide a few more times over before jumping in! :D
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

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Originally Posted by MM78 View Post
LOL, Track your Mouse Pointer? How Gods Earth did you come up with that?
It is possible. To be able to fingerprinting you. If they can fingerprinting a person with a 97% (1 in 30) chance just because of the way he is using his keyboard then they can use the mouse also.

Be sure of that. Some people might move the mouse each time around a transactions. Other clicks in the middle of the button, others on top,etc.

Why do I think they do it? Long time ago we played a stupid online game: we had to choose 1 image from 20 and the computer was able to guess each time what image we thought of. how it knew? it was the image he kept the mouse pointer the post.

I never did any research for the mouse thing, but I used to a programmer. And trust me a very good one.

If I was me i was using this extra things to others like address, date of birth name , :

- how long do you usually stay online ? each session. do you keep your paypal open for hours or you barerly log in. some people might just look at their ebay/e-mail, others are coming online and clicking everywhere.
it is a behavior.
-mouse movement
-do you usually receive F & F payments, mix of them.
-when you first registered paypal did you tried entering a ⊗⊗⊗⊗ zip/phone number, and then later on changed it because PayPal told you "incorrect zip/phone" ?


There are already algos for "how do you use your mouse/ behavior". For example when reading on this forum many people might move the mouse down to each line/word. others will hide it to top/left/right... others will let in the middle to not forget where it is.

And what's a big deal also..where do you normally park you mouse pointer?left? right? top? We developed some behaviors with it, very hard to be changed.
It is not a 100% hit, but if it is 1 in 10 ...and you share the same name and the same city, lol
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

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Originally Posted by oven.hot.pizza View Post
Mouse pointer theory rocks

Thats some serious business man - hardcore

I have never heard anything like and I dont think I ever will.
I feel honoured to have read your post

Thats the best thing I have ever read in my life..... respect for that man XxX
You should better read this:

https://www.google.com/#q=fingerprinting+mouse

or view this images: https://www.google.com/search?q=mous...+path+tracking

and write later on.

Last edited by smartguy; 10-21-2016 at 12:09 PM.
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

FYI, PayPal has been using AI to detect fraud since the beginning of time. This is not a concept that's groundbreakingly new to be implemented. The least you can do is to post the link of the article you read so we can actually know what's being outlined.

Also as stated multiple times before, passwords are NOT a linking factor. All passwords are stored as salted hashes, and thus the same password would not even result in the same hash string.

Last edited by BiN4RY; 10-21-2016 at 12:03 PM.
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Sorry, but your replies is very superficially minded, and not particularly funny. I have thought patterns myself, to possibly track a banned user, imagine what paypal could do with the funds they have on hand and their efforts to prevent sales against their policies or fraudulent activities (I imagine they put more effort on the latter though... However it might appear to you, its not science fiction... If you are so smart what exactly is the technology mentioned in the article below, I am really interested in your thoughts. I imagine paypal would want to locate a seller that they lost money from, that opened a new account...

https://www.bizety.com/2016/10/18/pa...against-fraud/

I ship rare to find items, in a on line US group, my target market is small (as the number of people using paypal in my country). In my case if they connect a few repeated buyers, could easily "recognize me". I got banned because a competitor bought a product and then said some kind of lie, I do not even know, how he managed shuting me down. I hope I ll not have a further issue after my last frozen account, I am already very aware of the common ways paypal can track you... Thanks.
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiN4RY View Post
FYI, PayPal has been using AI to detect fraud since the beginning of time. This is not a concept that's groundbreakingly new to be implemented. The least you can do is to post the link of the article you read so we can actually know what's being outlined.

Also as stated multiple times before, passwords are NOT a linking factor. All passwords are stored as salted hashes, and thus the same password would not even result in the same hash string.
WRONG. You will get the same hash over and over again. Search online for a MD5 tool, you can see it. So they will not store the same password, but the same hash.

Now, why they can't keep different hashes? it's simple! everytime you log in, you write your password and the $hashed_password should be equal to $stored_hashed_password.
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartguy View Post
WRONG. You will get the same hash over and over again. Search online for a MD5 tool, you can see it. So they will not store the same password, but the same hash.

Now, why they can't keep different hashes? it's simple! everytime you log in, you write your password and the $hashed_password should be equal to $stored_hashed_password.
Now do me a favor and search up what a salted hash is. Your post basically explains why storing passwords as plain unsalted hashes is a bad security practice.
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiN4RY View Post
Now do me a favor and search up what a salted hash is. Your post basically explains why storing passwords as plain unsalted hashes is a bad security practice.
But how do you know they used salted hash, adding random data to them?
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Advanced Tor Browser Fingerprinting


Mouse wheel fingerprinting

The mouse wheel event in Tor Browser (and most browsers) leaks information of the underlying hardware used to scroll the webpage. The event provides information about the delta scrolled, however if you are using a normal computer mouse with a mouse wheel, the delta is always three, but if you are using a trackpad, the deltas are variable and related to your trackpad and your usage patterns.

Another leak in the mouse wheel, is the scroll speed that is linked to the configuration of the operating system and the hardware capabilities itself.

I have created a little experiment as a proof of concept, available here:

Mouse wheel information leak demo

This demo creates three graphs, one with the scrolling speed, another with the scrolling delta, and another one with the number of times the user scrolled in the red box.
Mouse Speed fingerprinting

Another interesting fingerprint that could reveal some entropy is the speed of the mouse moving acrross the webpage. Since the speed of the mouse is controlled by the operating system and related to hardware, and can be read using javascript if you can measure time using the mentioned strategies.

It could be interesting also to measure average mouse speed while the user is in the page moving the mouse.
CPU Benchmark fingerprinting

With the improved accuracy on time provided by the setInterval inside the WebWorker, it is easy to create a CPU intensive script (or even memory intensive) and measure how long it takes for the user browser to execute it.

I have done some tests with different computers, getting completely different results, all of them using the same tor browser version
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

I see the discussion now going somewhere, thanks. My messages are updated a little late as a moderator have to approve them first. Yes, of course a fraud prevention technology recognizing patterns would be for them the first thing that tried to set up... I am wondering if there are experiences from users that followed all the "rules" and got suspended anyway? I cannot wait to read the stealth guide...
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartguy View Post
It is possible. To be able to fingerprinting you. If they can fingerprinting a person with a 97% (1 in 30) chance just because of the way he is using his keyboard then they can use the mouse also.

Be sure of that. Some people might move the mouse each time around a transactions. Other clicks in the middle of the button, others on top,etc.

Why do I think they do it? Long time ago we played a stupid online game: we had to choose 1 image from 20 and the computer was able to guess each time what image we thought of. how it knew? it was the image he kept the mouse pointer the post.

I never did any research for the mouse thing, but I used to a programmer. And trust me a very good one.

If I was me i was using this extra things to others like address, date of birth name , :

- how long do you usually stay online ? each session. do you keep your paypal open for hours or you barerly log in. some people might just look at their ebay/e-mail, others are coming online and clicking everywhere.
it is a behavior.
-mouse movement
-do you usually receive F & F payments, mix of them.
-when you first registered paypal did you tried entering a ⊗⊗⊗⊗ zip/phone number, and then later on changed it because PayPal told you "incorrect zip/phone" ?


There are already algos for "how do you use your mouse/ behavior". For example when reading on this forum many people might move the mouse down to each line/word. others will hide it to top/left/right... others will let in the middle to not forget where it is.

And what's a big deal also..where do you normally park you mouse pointer?left? right? top? We developed some behaviors with it, very hard to be changed.
It is not a 100% hit, but if it is 1 in 10 ...and you share the same name and the same city, lol

Is not ebay having the tracking codes, along with attracting the exact same ebay costumers an indicator that something wrong might going on? If they can get an approximate distance of your location and then find 5-10 people that previously bought from you, can this be an (extra) indicator, with other "soft" clues to get your account in a "lets check about this account activity" list?

Anyone knows if they can directly get your approximate location from the tracking number? To some I may look a little paranoid, but better safe than sorry, although it seems here I can easily buy new paypal accounts, and send the money (with invoices) to an account linked with my bank to withdraw the money?

As you mentioned kaypads and mouse, I am not really afraid about this right now, but I am wondering if there is a keypad and mouse with random noise to cover our tracks?
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Sorry for all the posts, I am new to this and is interesting. The easiest way to shut us down, would be to make a correlation with our other email accounts, facebook account e.t.c signature. Why this is not happening? I imagine a law protecting personal data, but how web pages in my country identify me with my facebook account, without giving them the info to do so? I am reading some random news and in the comment section asks me if I want to comment as fb user "real name" when I do not evan have any kind of registration with that specific site. How is that possible and why paypal do not resort (thankfully) to anything similar?
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartguy View Post
But how do you know they used salted hash, adding random data to them?
Because it's basic internet security 101. What do you think matters more to Paypal: protecting the financial information and credentials of all users, or trying to match your password against everyone else and only to find thousands of others share the same common password as you?

Additionally, the "mouse fingerprinting" method you posted is merely a proposed proof of concept. There is no implications of it being implemented, nor is it even practical.
The proposed method is quite non-deterministic (ie, the same user can easily generate very different profiles), and the collected data is undoubtedly too "noisy" to identify someone accurately in a large sample size (ie, too much variance for each user's samples, and many users will share the same profiles). Therefore, this "mouse fingerprinting" technique really isn't suitable for identification.

Last edited by BiN4RY; 10-21-2016 at 03:13 PM.
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiN4RY View Post
Because it's basic internet security 101. What do you think matters more to Paypal: protecting the financial information and credentials of all users, or trying to match your password against everyone else and only to find thousands of others share the same common password as you?

Additionally, the "mouse fingerprinting" method you posted is merely a proposed proof of concept. There is no implications of it being implemented, nor is it even practical.
The proposed method is quite non-deterministic (ie, the same user can easily generate very different profiles), and the collected data is undoubtedly too "noisy" to identify someone accurately in a large sample size (ie, too much variance for each user's samples, and many users will share the same profiles). Therefore, this "mouse fingerprinting" technique really isn't suitable for identification.

True, but I was thinking like this.

1. Most paypal/ebay users, are buyers not sellers. Those with stealth accounts or fraudsters/scammers are just a few. there are many PayPal holders near your city, but how many are sellers also?

2. Mouse fingerprinting correlated with your IP / City for example + the type of products you might sell... will it work?

3. I got your point. instead of MD5($password),they do MD5($password+$username)... so the passoword can't be finded out so easy.
So if you have password "parole" and username "john" ... it will hash ("parolejohn").

But...what if they really want to profile people like I can read in those news?
Then why can't they save even 1 caracter of your password so they can say "chance in 1 from 50".

Do you get my point here?

I heard in videos that they have "3000 factors" to determine the "HIGH RISK"...

By the way they only loose only 0.32% of their profit to FRAUDS. Just that. And 99% of people out here they know how to commit fraud but they don't. So how they catch the ones that turns into badguys then before they steal a few millions from them?
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartguy View Post
1. Most paypal/ebay users, are buyers not sellers. Those with stealth accounts or fraudsters/scammers are just a few. there are many PayPal holders near your city, but how many are sellers also?
There undoubtedly more buyer accounts than seller accounts, but there are a lot more sellers than you're thinking of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartguy View Post
2. Mouse fingerprinting correlated with your IP / City for example + the type of products you might sell... will it work?
Adding a noisy and inaccurate tracking factor to the existing model is a bad idea. This will only cloud up the AI's judgements and make it less accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartguy View Post
3. I got your point. instead of MD5($password),they do MD5($password+$username)... so the passoword can't be finded out so easy.
So if you have password "parole" and username "john" ... it will hash ("parolejohn").
No, that's not how salting works. You can think of salting as applying a second lay of hash to your play password. Consider the following pseudocode and explanation.

Suppose your password is "password". This plaintext is first passed into a hashing function and becomes "ABCDEF1234" (hashed_pw).

Code:
hashed_pw = md5("password")
The second step will then take the hash "ABCDEF1234" into another salting function (with a randomly generated "salt" used as a second input) to turn it into "DF14236AB" (salted_pw). You can think of the salting function as another form of hashing function, but it takes two inputs instead.

Notice that only the final salted hash "DF14236AB" and the salt itself is stored, but the unsalted hash was never stored.

Code:
salt = rand()
salted_pw = salt_hash(hashed_pw, salt)
save_to_db(salted_pw, salt)
Since hashes are one-way (irreversible) functions, it's impossible for anyone (including Paypal) to know what your actual password is (or if anyone has the same password as you). The most they can do is to verify if you entered the correct password by using the same hashing/salting algorithms, and see if the salted hash of your login attempt matches the one in the database.

Code:
user_salted_pw, user_salt = retrieve_from_db(login_username_field)

if salt_hash( md5(login_password_field), user_salt ) == user_salted_pw
    allowaccess()
else
    denyaccess()
endif

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartguy View Post
So how they catch the ones that turns into badguys then before they steal a few millions from them?
Again, Paypal has employed AI to monitor account activities since they were first created. Account limitations with the reasons of "unusual account activities" or "sudden change in pattern of account activities" is pretty commonly seen on the forum. While nothing is perfect, Paypal is doing a pretty good job protecting themselves, or else this forum wouldn't exist in the first place

There are factors that greatly contribute to risks, and there are factors that have very little to no contributions. An effective AI focuses primarily on the greatest factors to train a model that identifies risks as accurately as possible.

Last edited by BiN4RY; 10-21-2016 at 04:12 PM.
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiN4RY View Post
There are factors that greatly contribute to risks, and there are factors that have very little to no contributions. An effective AI focuses primarily on the greatest factors to train a model that identifies risks as accurately as possible.
So, I guess we have a simple process in the guide that work more or less... According to your experience how "technical" you had to get to improve your chances? Or at this time is pretty straightforward following the guide and maybe posts of interest here?

I forgot to post the "article" does not get into any specifics, and yes, its more curbing further loss than try to discover "stelth accounts".

Ultimately, deep learning has been effective in analyzing factors such as timelines, location, etc. as part of payment transactions. Several kinds of algorithms analyze thousands of data points in real-time, such as IP address, buying history, recent activity at the merchant’s site or at PayPal’s site and information stored in cookies. When an unusual pattern is revealed such as a string of purchases or a sudden change in geographic location, the activity gets turned into a “feature,” or a rule that can be applied in real time to stop purchases that fit suspicious activity. This “feature” can then be applied to stop purchases that meet its criteria. Since PayPal contains approximately over 1.1 PT of customer data, deep learning algorithms are able to analyze potentially tens of thousands of latent features that can help curb fraudulent activity.

The cumulative effect of using deep learning is largely beneficial at preventing further losses. According to a LexisNexus report, PayPal’s fraud rate is at a remarkably low 0.32% against the financial industry standard of 1.32%.
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Yes, they can track your bowel movements, when you fart, when you masturbate....
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Default Re: Paypal's "pattern recognition" and new "deep learning" technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Payfriend View Post
Sorry, but your replies is very superficially minded, and not particularly funny. I have thought patterns myself, to possibly track a banned user, imagine what paypal could do with the funds they have on hand and their efforts to prevent sales against their policies or fraudulent activities (I imagine they put more effort on the latter though... However it might appear to you, its not science fiction... If you are so smart what exactly is the technology mentioned in the article below, I am really interested in your thoughts. I imagine paypal would want to locate a seller that they lost money from, that opened a new account...

https://www.bizety.com/2016/10/18/pa...against-fraud/

I ship rare to find items, in a on line US group, my target market is small (as the number of people using paypal in my country). In my case if they connect a few repeated buyers, could easily "recognize me". I got banned because a competitor bought a product and then said some kind of lie, I do not even know, how he managed shuting me down. I hope I ll not have a further issue after my last frozen account, I am already very aware of the common ways paypal can track you... Thanks.
They put all the old tricks into a new book. Most of what I am reading on web articles is propaganda.
You know like a stupid girl who say she only wanna have sex with good looking guy but after a whie she end up (because of competition) with a stupid ugly and fat guy.

The problem is this: buyers can't scam them...If a monkey came and scam the seller will pay .
they say
"hey, we only loose 0.32% of our profit to fraud". Ok , but it is because sellers pay a huge % of their income when a crap girl open a case "I got a ⊗⊗⊗⊗ purse".

PayPal know that ONLY sellers cam scam them. How? A nigerian can open an Ebay account and sell worth of 500,000$ and vanish overnight. They don't want that. Scamming as a buyer is not as easy. You need to have hunds. But selling iphones worth of 50 000 will be easy. They make it hard for you to move funds after they limit your account with no history.

Most stealth guys get into troubles because PayPal think they are thief. This can be to many factors.

- You live in a bad area. Yeah, you are from Romania or Serbia and sold worth of 10 000$ a month and boom limited. Most people here earn 500$ a moth. I can prove it anytime to anyone that PayPal is discriminating by geographical location.
You simply have to create the same account in another account and there will be no problems. It's called racism, thank you GayPal!

Anyway, They don't want to loose money so they ban.

The only way PayPal can mess with you is if you are honest and they are not. This is a principle of life. If you are the not so honest guy PayPal might get into troubles.

USA accounts are bad comparative to Canada, Japan or other countries because of fraud. A guy from Nepal want to use Ebay for fraud. HE will almost sure use an USA account.
So they develop algorithms by country. They probably do not trust new accounts in USA and accounts who receive a few thousands in Romania.
This is their "deep learning from experience". I think

Then ...they say something about "deep scam". I think it is a backtracking function to detect moving of stolen funds. i saw in a video a level like 30 ,
they simply follow the money. like, you made 2000$ on ebay and you move to a newly created account, and boom you got some chargebacks. That is their "thinking like human algorithm". You got money from accounts who get into negative balance = you are a high risk.

Or... they can rank you like Google with their PageRank algo. It is not important how many payments you got but who pays you also.

Like you got 200$ from a new account...maybe you just want to increase your account strength, something like a ⊗⊗⊗⊗ Ebay feedback.

They are not as good as detecting fraud at all. Otherwise those fuxxx scammers won't be able to keep coming back on ebay&paypal. It's nasty to go to the postage and when you back to find out "Payment on hold - we think it is unauthorized" ...then wtf they didn't put that hold from first second?!

Last edited by smartguy; 10-21-2016 at 06:03 PM.
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