Just some rambling and observations

[GrannyT]

The game we are all playing here has been caused, in the main, by idiotic unreasonable people with a robotic mind set. We are all looking for ways to beat the system and get our own back on ‘the man’.

I have in my time here trolled at length the excellent threads and I am in awe of some of the people who contribute to these forums. Some names worthy of mention are GreenBean, ShadyOne and OompahLoompah. But there are many many more. Everyone has their own reason to be here but the ingenious methods of circumnavigating the obstructions put in our path truly amaze me.

But ........ (and there is always a ‘but’ isn’t there?) ......... I have to ask myself how long can we go on as we are. It strikes me that we are a ‘sticking plaster’ operation in that PP or EB cause us a problem and we find a fix for it. The problem as I see it is that PP and EB no doubt are registered here and observe closely everything we do. They spend their lives trying to stop us. Thus we have certain VCCs no longer acceptable, we have telephone verification no longer sufficient, certain types of financial accounts no longer able to be used. Our sticking plasters are slowly and permanently getting ripped off.

They place extra ‘stresses’ upon us by asking for our passports, Driving Licenses and where they can Social Security Numbers. All documents and information that cannot LEGALLY be contrived.

At first glance this would seem stupid as EB and PP make money when we make money but I think many of us are missing the point and taking this far too personal. The truth is (well, my truth anyway) EB don’t want us. They don’t need us and they will do everything they can to get rid of us. They don’t want VERO owners upset (they are good clean business selling products that people want - why upset them?) they don’t want foo-foo items listed (that just brings court action down on their heads and they earn nothing from your illegal trade) and they don’t want customers filing complaints about slow delivery or bad quality. (That brings television companies down on their heads and lowers their stock value)

For sellers of VERO and foo-foo items this is just a process they have to go through to ply their illegal trade and is accepted as such but for those of us who want to run honest and viable businesses it starts to place on us unacceptable levels of stress whereby we wonder if it is all worth it.

One of the things I have noticed in the threads is how cheapskate so many people are. They want to earn money by trading yet begrudge spending on the guides or on doing what needs to be done. They want, and expect, everything for nothing. They come on and almost demand that we solve their problems and few give anything back. They take the ingenious solutions that are created, hack them to death, fail to follow the most elementary of instructions and then when they fail in their endeavours complain that they have been short changed.

It is my belief that we are approaching a point where it will be nigh on impossible for anyone to get back on the trading venue without spending a lot of money. The deep level of stealth that we are going to have to undertake is going to be hideously expensive. I have already created two such operations and I would defy anyone to link them to me or even believe they were stealth operations - but it has cost me hundreds of pounds for each one. I made that money back in the first month of trading and I give good honest service with good honest products on a proper commercial basis. For me it is worth it and I am prepared to invest in myself and my business.

I will not be scamming, VEROing, selling foo-foo or any of the other scams that we see and so for me the costs involved become part of the investment I have to make to be in business. It is infuriating that, because of the enviroment created by other not so honest sellers, my operations could be shut down by the mindless idiots mentioned in the opening lines of this article because I have traded too high or crossed some invisible boundary that isn’t even relevant to me..

For sellers in the ‘alternate’ market the costs will be too high because they could be wiped out at any moment and the investment would be lost.

At that point will EB and PP have won? They will have achieved the ‘clean’ trading enviroment that they want and even the ‘stealth’ traders will be conducting them selves in a way that EB & PP approve of?

Will we, by our efforts, have made ourselves extinct?

[oompaloompa]

I agree with everything you have said and feel uneasy about the lengths one must go to when your real details are banned. I felt I was banned unfairly, but I could not do anything but go stealth.

I think like all companies nowadays they have compliance issues, they have to show that they are doing everything possible to police the community and it must be quite tough, I mean they have some hard-nuts who behave badly, but I do think they have a quick trigger finger and should not ask for docs, before youve even sold anything for example, plus asking for docs if you cannot verify them is kind of a waste of time, I would actually prefer if they just required you to keep an nominal sum as a deposit in your pp, but I suppose there are people who would not agree with that either....

about foo-foo, some people really want foo-foo, those people add up to alot of revenue, some dont want to pay for real goods they want throw-away fashion, most know what they are getting. ebay dont really care about vero owners, they only care about when they are made to take down goods if they are reported - again compliance. If they wanted they could be like amazon, where you could only sell brands if you are an approved seller. Without eb foo foo, where would all the customers go to buy their goods, markets? well they are cracked down on alot more now, so some other site would pop up for them Im sure, and that site would really really rival ebays! no - ebay keeps its friends close and its enemies closer.

US have the ssn issue, however they do have a few stealth methods that can circumvent this, but I feel they may end up with a losing battle, again ebay wont benefit from this, it will lose its revenue. I dont think NI will be required in UK, they are unable to verify it anyway. I am still incredulous that ssn can be verified by paypal, however the laws are different over there.

I think people dont buy the guide that would help them and keeps forum running, because they are unsure if it just another guide that has public info on it, but it has everything and is concise and step by step, also it has the benefits of adding you to a community and puts you in the subs section.

scammers have spoilt it for everyone I agree, those people that sell goods they dont have, for example and clear money out.

Many loopholes get stopped, again for scammer reasons but also because they get hammered through over-use and drawn to their attention,this forum has its part to play, sometimes sharing is not a good thing! one worth mentioning that was very handy was the vcc visa withdrawals that many Euro countires enjoyed, the countries that allow this now are dwindling and they are mainly allowing only bank cards not vcc.

I do think our time on eb and pp may be limited, I would not put my eggs in one basket, I am part-time on it and I will consider going back to work part-time in a few years if it gets too difficult, one reason I stuck with ebay and expanded was because of the forum, if I had not had it for companionship, I was not going to continue. Its a reason I avoided amazon, from reading forums, I could see hey were a jump ahead already.

[rsot]

Worth noting is that no matter how any system changes, new methods are always found.

Extinction is for the weak who cannot adapt or who do make the EFFORTS to seek new methods. Creativity arises from necessity so I always know there will be a way.

Only way to stay in the know is to inform oneself and make connections.

[GrannyT]

Originally Posted by oompaloompa

I agree with everything you have said and feel uneasy about the lengths one must go to when your real details are banned. I felt I was banned unfairly, but I could not do anything but go stealth.

That's me exactly. Having said that I get a very perverted thrill in being stealth.

Originally Posted by oompaloompa

I think people dont buy the guide that would help them and keeps forum running, because they are unsure if it just another guide that has public info on it, but it has everything and is consise and step by step, also it has the benefits of adding you to a community and puts you in the subs section.

Some people haven't quite grasped the concept of you get what you pay for yet

Originally Posted by oompaloompa

scammers have spoilt it for everyone I agree, those people that sell goods they dont have for example and clear money out.

But are we encouraging them by sharing what we know?

Originally Posted by oompaloompa

I do think our time on eb and pp many be limited, I would not put my eggs in one basket, i dont, I am part-time on it and I will consider going back to work part-time in a few years if it gets to difficult. One reason I avoided amazon, was from reading forums, I could see hey were a jump ahead.

I haven't touched Amazon yet. I would appreciate a PM as to why you haven't

[GrannyT]

Originally Posted by rsot

Worth noting is that no matter how any system changes, new methods are always found.

Extinction is for the weak who cannot adapt or who do make the EFFORTS to seek new methods. Creativity arises from necessity so I always know there will be a way.

Only way to stay in the know is to inform oneself and make connections.

You are absolutely right of course, my only concern is where we start to bump against fences

It's one thing having a game, isn't it.
I guess my point on that is should we, somehow, be more selective about who we share our information with - or does that defeat the whole object of this place.

[oompaloompa]

rsot, whilst Darwinsm is great (for some) those of us that remember the old days think its an uphill climb, you can see the difference between now and a few years back, and some checks are getting downright ridiculous. The new methods you speak of exist and will always, but I think we are travelling in ever decreasing circles (dont know if thats just a UK phrase!) until we reach the end of the road.

granny - no pm needed, its just amazon is ahead of ebay in terms detection, its harder to start anew on amazon, the stealth methods to re-signup with amazon are different, hence the new ebook.

[GreenBean]

To survive one is always selective. It's called survival of the fittest. This game is no different.


That said, stating the obvious is not always expedient, and certainly broadcasting it, is self-defeating.

Be happy there is a DELETE button

Peace & Mungbeans

[GrannyT]

Originally Posted by GreenBean™

To survive one is always selective. It's called survival of the fittest. This game is no different.


That said, stating the obvious is not always expedient, and certainly broadcasting it, is self-defeating.

Be happy there is a DELETE button

Peace & Mungbeans

LOL - Got that hon - thanks

[GreenBean]

Originally Posted by oompaloompa

rsot, whilst Darwinsm is great (for some) those of us that remember the old days think its an uphill climb, you can see the difference between now and a few years back, and some checks are getting downright ridiculous. The new methods you speak of exist and will always, but I think we are travelling in ever decreasing circles (dont know if thats just a UK phrase!) until we reach the end of the road.
.

So long as there is something in opposition to what people want, there will be workarounds. That's human nature

[GrannyT]

Originally Posted by GreenBean™

So long as there is something in opposition to what people want, there will be workarounds. That's human nature

I couldn't agree more but as oompah says - are we heading in ever decreasing circles? If you look back say - 3 years ago it cost you next to nothing to get back to doing business.

Now it costs - I don't just mean money. There is all the time and effort needed as well.

At what point (if ever) does it become non-viable. And, does my final point, that EB and PP will have everyone behaving as they would wish have any relevance? Will it become too expensive for VERO and Foo-Foo? (Doncha love that? Foo-Foo?)

[oompaloompa]

I think the effort and time is definately the real cost to us,

In terms of money, yes things cost more but if you make some money in your first month, it should more than cover the costs.

[jeffweico]

As with anything in life, the more costly/complicated it becomes, the fewer people who will want to do it. But that could be a big plus. If it stops a lot of the scam artists and 18 year olds who want to sell counterfeits without any consequences or expenses, it will be an overall positive for those of us who are left standing.

Some of the things I see people post make me cringe, because I know their behavior makes it more dificult for the rest of us. And some of these people are just downright tacky!

• Sticking eBay for fees. You KNEW what they were BEFORE you listed your item. PAY UP!
• Refusing to refund a customer because their item was perfect - at least they THINK it must have been. The box didn't rattle when they bought it at the flea market!
• Refusing to take responsibility when a customer does not receive an order, or it is damaged in the mail. It ***IS*** YOUR responsibility! LIVE UP TO IT!
• Using a friend's information on an account, and then going into hiding when the friend is sued for selling counterfeits.
• Being too cheap (or too lazy) to follow the stealth methods and then blaming everyone else for losing their account.

There are more, but if I keep this up, Aspkin would need a new hard drive before the day is out!

[GrannyT]

Originally Posted by jeffweico

As with anything in life, the more costly/complicated it becomes, the fewer people who will want to do it. But that could be a big plus. If it stops a lot of the scam artists and 18 year olds who want to sell counterfeits without any consequences or expenses, it will be an overall positive for those of us who are left standing.

Some of the things I see people post make me cringe, because I know their behavior makes it more dificult for the rest of us. And some things they want are just downright tacky!

• Sticking eBay for fees. You KNEW what they were BEFORE you listed your item. PAY UP!
• Refusing to refund a customer because their item was perfect - at least they THINK it must have been. The box didn't rattle when they bought it at the flea market!
• Refusing to take responsibility when a customer does not receive an order, or it is damaged in the mail. It ***IS*** YOUR responsibility! LIVE UP TO IT!
• Using a friend's information on an account, and then going into hiding when the friend is sued for selling counterfeits.
• Being too cheap (or too lazy) to follow the stealth methods and then blaming everyone else for losing their account.

There are more, but if I keep this up, Aspkin would need a new hard drive before the day is out!

Everything you have said is what I was trying to say in my article. I'm really not sure where it's going but I do know it is going to get much more complicated.

I aim to have a few selling IDs but I will continue building them in the way I am now. It's expensive for sure - I just hope I'm not talking myself into a dead end.

One thing is certain - we have to be lucky every day - they only have to be lucky once. .