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Customer demanding refund after return policy..
 

I sold a new laptop(sealed) that was refurbished. I listed this has having a 45day return policy. Its now about 50days later and the buyer has basically said she is not happy with it and wants a refund.

I pointed out to her that it seems there are no real issues with the laptop and that it is basically used at this point I'll still take it back with a restocking fee being it is past the return policy.

She simply forced the return(paid for return shipping), and says she is expecting nothing less with a full refund.

What happens if I issue a restocking fee? Amazon policy clearly states sellers can issue small reasonable restocking fees.

My concern is if she leaves neg feedback, files a-z claim, and wins. Then I'm out all 3 times.

Would be great if any sellers experienced this before. My account can take both hits right now...

A 'new' lap-top is just that NEW.

'Refurbished' means it was re-done at some factory and resealed. Its warranty may be less than the normal.
You were stretcthing limits by calling the laptop 'new'.

Newly refurbished maybe.

So you have this 'new' lap-top back?
They buyer did send it back and paid to ship it back?

And for 5 days over a refund time, you have an issue?

I hope someone else does reply. This sounds like cake and eat it....
:rolleyes:

No, trust me. Everything was noted in the comments. I noted it as a refurb and noted it was still factory sealed. I've never had an issue with something "not as described". This is no difference. I can not keep afloat if everyone returned laptops.


I realized this was refurb, I noted a 45 day return policy to build confidence in buyers. Buyer came to me and said "its not fast enough, I want to return it".

If buyer came to me and said, this #$#@$ crashed and wont turn on, thats a whole difference story.


Go buy a car, and ask to return it because you want a faster one. Im sure alot of people will disagree with this....but I cant please everyone. I would lose alot of money if I just took this back and had to resell it. I offered to take a look at it and see what I could do. buyer wants a refund.

Ah, buyers' remorse yet..........

buyer is shipping back the item with paid for return shipping

You need more though?

Does your business plan not allow a certain amount of funds for refunds, goodwill etc?

The thing is on desktops and laptops my profit is very slim.

My issue is that yes this was a refurb, but it was new. New as in box, protective plastics etc. Its now used.

If I could afford it, I would take it back. But in that case more buyers would want to test out items and I think that is why most online retailers state return policys "return for exchange only".

The CD-key has now been exposed. Buyer could have installed that on two other computers. I resell this computer, and now the new customer is locked out saying this windows has been installed too many times.

Im not refusing to take it back, Im merely trying to recup my loses from loaning out a new laptop.


But back to topic... Amazon does have a policy where sellers are allowed to charge a restocking fee..and I was just wondering what happens if the buyer files an a-z claim regarding the restocking fee.

When selling on amazon or ebay , unfortunately you need to prepare and be ready for refunds. Normal brick and mortar store rules don't apply on these venues.

The customer is definitely always right online

"•If the item becomes defective more than 30 days after shipment and is under warranty, please assist the buyer in pursuing a warranty claim with the manufacturer."

"Type of Return Request Restocking fee allowed?
Buyer changes mind, buyer remorse, or price difference Yes "

I would charged the 25% restocking price and have done this before. lthough the customer was unhappy they wrote to amazon who informed then that I am within my rights to do so. But things might have been different had they opened an AZ case.

It all depends on your feedback and account status. If you only sell high value items then im guessing you would struggle to take the hit of an AZ and bad feedback. I have quite high volume and this was one of my rare high valued items so I was willing to take the chance, it was a similar situation to this one.

If you do decide to go with the restocking fee I would write to the customer and cleary explain why, especially including the fact that The CD-key has now been exposed. Tell them that they can either have the laptop shipped back to them if they pay shipping or you will charge a 75% restocking charge as per amazons rules. Also give her a contact address for amazon customer support as they normally use that before trying to do their own thing which results in an AZ.

I can handle an a-z claim and a neg feedback. I even have stock coming where I only expect to break even but its to increase my order count incase I ever get hit with a bunch of negs at once.

I just dont want to get hit with both and then Amazon side with them if they open a case....but after browsing amazon its clear sellers are allowed to charge restocking fees and after 30days have the choice of not allowing returns, so I cant see Amazon siding with the buyer.......

It is good to know Amazon told the buyer you had the right to charge a restocking fee. I think if a claim were to be opened Amazon would say the same as the buyer just says "its not fast enough and wont play videos".

This is the bit the looses me. How can it be new, and be a refurb?

Newly refurbished make sense, but not new and a refurbished laptop...

Why cant it be new? You opened the box, booted it up, removed all the plastic on the screen. Its now in used condition and can not be sold as the original condition.

This return is not a return that is "not as described" etc. New, refurbished, does it matter? Buy had laptop for 50 days now and just decides to return it.

I appreciate you say you can handle the issues as of THIS SALE

Where is your plan if you get more issues that will damage the account??

You may use one selling life for little reason

If it was at some point refurbished then it has at some point already been used, so it cannot be a new item.

It can only be a newly refurbished item, not a new item.

Keep in mind Amazon/ebay has a separate cat for refurbished items. I will then list under condition/comments "Item is refurbished but still sealed in retail box".

I didnt phrase my sentence right :) I still personally would consider a refurbished item "new" if it is factory sealed. Refurbished items can also be used or open box :)

But after doing some reading I was reminded that winning the buybox is based on alotta things including metrics. The past two weeks have been really slow...I told her as long as there are no scratches, etc there will be no stocking fee.

there are plenty of ways a product can be new and refurbished, especially with a laptop. It could be faulty from the factory, an old model with upgraded hardware or a display model that has been modified and plenty of other ways.

As for the buy box, once you are eligible for it the only metric they count is price. I know what they say but I have seen people with 85% feedback getting the buy box before me with 98% because they price the item 4p lower. Its your choice but you have basically given in to this woman. You did not have to take the laptop back and at the very least you should have charged a restocking fee. but I guess sometimes its just not worth the hassle.

You have come to the right conclusion. Yes the buyer was outside the period of return but, online, a lot of things are different than brick and mortar sales, as another post indicated.

Phew. Wise choice.
I have a return time stated too. ( moreso on ebay). But I do make an effort to accomodate a buyer who 'asks'/ 'wants' if they ask several days after the return deadline.
This has worked fine long term. No dings on an account made it safe for another onslaught.
And those come.
Good Luck

I have concerns about your business plan. Forgetting the issue of "new" vs. "refurbished" electronics have notoriously low profit margins. For a business to be successful over the long term, you need to have enough of a profit margin to absorb the cost of returns, as well as any losses due to fraud.

If your business plan only works if everything goes smoothly and there are no returns, you may want to find something else to sell. I'm not trying to be judgmental, it is just that in ANY retail operation, returns are a part of doing business whether online or offline.

Technically, the customer is outside of the return period. However, she can still complain to Amazon and that could hurt your account. Also, they could file for a chargeback.

Banks almost always side with their customers. If the buyer claims the item was listed as new, but was actually refurbished, that would be an automatic win for the buyer. If the buyer claims the laptop is running too slow because it is malfunctioning, that would also be an automatic win for the buyer. If the complaint is simply that the laptop is too slow for what she wants to use it for, it could go either way.

Also, there are different definitions of "refurbished" vs "open box" or "manufacturer recertified". A good explanation can be found here: Refurbished vs Open Box vs Factory Recertified

Lastly, someone mentioned a 75% restocking fee. I highly doubt that Amazon would allow that. I believe their terms state that a REASONABLE restocking fee may be charged. 75% is NOT reasonable.

As someone who buys items, I can tell you that the definitions of "refurbished" "recertified" and "open box" DO mean something to me and are NOT interchangeable. For example, I recently bought a "recertified" laptop from Dell. These computers were leased to a business and returned at the end of the lease. Dell takes these back, wipes any information off the hard drives, re-installs the OS, makes sure everything is in working order and gives the buyer a 90 day warranty. That is WAY DIFFERENT from an "open box" item that was returned to the store by the original customer. To save 15%, I am not willing to take the risk the item was returned because there was a problem with it. It simply is not worth the small amount saved.

1) no one has suggested a 75% restocking fee, amazon only allows up to 50% but suggests a reasonable amount.

2) i don know what banks you are dealing with but a charge back would never be allowed on this. The main reason is fraud but occasionally you can do a chargeback if the goods are not as stated but OP clearly says
Everything was noted in the comments. I noted it as a refurb and noted it was still factory sealed. Maybe the bank of Nigeria would do a chargeback but thats about it.

3)You can buy refurbished products from apple themselves. These have never left apples facility, they are sold as new and refurbished "Refurbished Macs are likely to be brand-new but unsold models (if it is from a previous year), or reconditioned current models."

I dont even know why people are arguing the point as there is not a New refurbished category on amazon. He clealry listed under refurbished, that means the buyer knew exactly what they were getting as its under the category refurbished.

4) you link to some random guys opinion on what a refurb is? For a start it can vary from industry to industry but the only point here was can a refurb be new and as apple themselves sell new refurbs the answer is clearly yes.

This is the quote from your previous post, above:

"Tell them that they can either have the laptop shipped back to them if they pay shipping or you will charge a 75% restocking charge as per amazons rules".

I want to point out that I was NOT suggesting that the OP did anything wrong. My main point was that if your business cannot take a hit in terms of a refund, or a loss due to fraud, it won't be very long before you are OUT OF BUSINESS.

Maybe in the UK, it is more difficult to do a chargeback, but here in the US it happens all the time. Some buyers even use it as their first option. Even if the buyer does not win, if they file for a chargeback, Amazon will be looking closely at the seller's account. That is what we try to avoid in stealth.

And granted, there are many terms that people use to describe items: reconditioned, refurbished, remanufactured, open box, recertified, etc. The Federal Trade Commission has not defined these terms, but it is illegal to use any deceptive means to advertise a product. I am NOT suggesting that the OP misled anyone. But when I see people arguing that new and refurbished are the same thing, that is just wrong.

ok my mistake, in my first post I put 25% which is what i meant. No one is saying new and refurbished are the same.

just that refurbished products can be new products. The seller said from the start that this was listed under "refurbished".

Any and every bank can issue a charge back, and it often happens. Customer just has to say they are unhappy with the good, have returned them but not has their money back. That is all the justification needed for a charge back. Its a sod, but you just have to accept and deal with the fact that that happens, god knows I have had to accept it enough times over the last few years.

Rubbish. He made no mention of the category
Several of us all read the wording the same way

OP starts with I sold a new and refurbished laptop

Nowhere there did he add it was listed in a specific category....

Why dont you just issue 25% refund and call it a day. More than likely you will get a negative or a-z claim if not both but you wont find out unless you take some action. also waiting for the buyer to file a-z claim will result in FULL refund

In my opinion, it's all about the wording.

"I understand you'd like to return the laptop, however you are beyond the 45 day return period. We can make an exception and process the return for you, but we will need to charge a restocking fee of 25%.

You will need to ship us the laptop within the next 5 business days. By sending the item back to our facility, you are accepting the charge for the restocking fee and understand that you will be refunded back the purchase price minus that restocking fee."

If an A-to-z claim comes later on, you can then reference that message you sent. If the laptop is 1k, that is a $250 fee, IMO it is worth the A-to-z claim for that amount. If the customer doesn't give any flack for the message, you might be clear of an A-to-z anyway.

Before you do anything, please get the item in your hand. Otherwise, if the buyer still have the item and they do a chargeback, amazon will refund the buyer and they don't have to ship the laptop back. Happen to my first Amazon account :rip:

I know he made no direct mention of the category in his first post. But likewise, he never said he sold it under new category which was assumed, most likely based on your initial response. Just that the laptop was "new and refurbished".

I thought it was pretty clear from what he said in the first post that he would sell a refurbished laptop under refurbished. He would have to be pretty stupid to be complaining about selling a refurbished laptop as new and then getting a return.

I deal with these products every day and thanks to the bad advice given this seller has lost money. Your somewhat sarcastic advice was

Well for a start with the software key used I would not take any product back and neither should this seller, this is allowed by amazon with all software. For all he knows the next time he sells the operating system could be invalid.

The refurb sounds like it was a new item so all of the new seals will now be broken devaluing the laptop and meaning it is now not a new refurb.

He has also paid to have it sent out and yes, for being 5 days out he should have an issue. This could be $500 item that has been massively devalued because of this buyers actions and yet your post implies that the seller was in the wrong.

Specifically what is the meaning of the following sentences. I hope someone else does reply. This sounds like cake and eat it. More discussion was needed.

Thread was opened up for discussion so this happened.

Others were looking at this differently.

Do not insult me by saying sellers do not try to con buyers.

Do not insult any of us by saying ' we forced' the seller into any choice.

You are speaking from your great knowledge of amazon selling. Not in dispute. But avoid inferring that none of us make an effort to sell within sound business plans even on amazon.

Are you going to sit there and post it would be really brilliant for a seller to take a negative if he could avoid doing so.

Are you really saying that?

Also ,barry, in case you have not noticed, the OP did a BIG edit on his second post that changed what was first discussed.....

In the space of 13 minutes, he changed what he had written as I made my first reply.


That changed the ball game too, since we are so busy with assumptions and sarcasm.

Part of running an online business is accepting that sometimes you take a loss on returns. If the business cannot handle that, then the the business model needs to be looked at.

Yes the buyer returned the item after the deadline. These things happen. Just refund the buyer, charge a small restocking fee, resell and move on. Not worth the strike against the account as this will cause you to loose more money in lost sales over a longer period of time.

Simple solution for a much-debated issue of mislabelling product status and lot of interesting posts.

Well you did pretty much cajole them into it. The initial question was can I charge a restocking fee and based on your inital response it turned into a thread accusing the guy of trying to sell refurbs as new and how its not possible for a refurb to be new.

My reply was the only one which addressed the actual question and facts of this before the OP decided to refund. If it wasnt for the amount of people taking this thread off topic (the fact that they were completely wrong does not even matter) maybe the Op could of got the info they came here for, rather than a load of accusations about refurbs not being new.

And thats really the only thing that matters. Because like it or not the advice you give on here can and does affect peoples lives. You sarcastically call me the amazon expert, but I would never dream of giving any advice on someones business unless I had researched what I was saying and had something to support it.

Well this was my first response, but it got lost amongst all the claims of what was being sold. This is what the seller should have done and now they are out by a good amount of money.

However I also made the same mistake in that I think you mean issue the 75% refund.

The question was answered, along side the debate of if it is possible to have a refurbished' item classed as a new item.

Suggestion was to issue a refund, charge a small restocking fee if any, and move on.

Right, i meant issue 25% restocking fee. Its none of our business how he wants to conduct his business. If longevity isnt a priority them let him do what he has to do now to make money.