Forum

Originally Posted by oompaloompa (Post 884926)

so again, why are you letting them build a case against YOU?

Originally Posted by rsot (Post 884927)

Maybe OP wants to go down in flames and be an exam-apple...

Originally Posted by walkingupwards (Post 884925)

Well if they have bought anything from me and been planning on suing, they would not ask their lawyer to call me and act nice on the phone, explain how could we could hopefully solve this in an amicable way!! They would have filed a lawsuit directly or at least sent a cease and dissest letter at least.

I am 1000% sure they have not bought anything from me, when I asked the lawyer how he knew the cables were ⊗⊗⊗⊗, he replied:

"You have a few negative feedbacks saying they were ⊗⊗⊗⊗"

And that's it.



I am now considering sending this lawyer my supplier info, but using an anonymous e-mail service to do so. This way he will have the info he is after without being able to connect it directly to me.

What do you think guys?

Originally Posted by oompaloompa (Post 884932)

Yes, and all this nonsense about hiding IP address is misleading OP.....this 'lawyer' does not have the power to trace exact IP owner without court order for significant cause, not this kind of issue! The most they can find out is the approximate area the IP is at, which can be fairly accurate to be honest (but anyone can do this rough trace online), but it is not proof -This lawyer guy is just phishing for info..the OP has said alot already...........

Originally Posted by dachilla (Post 884933)

dude, this smells fishy as f#ck. Do not give out any info. Do not Call him or send him any letters. No German laywer would act like this. U sure this guy is even a lawyer? I'd doubt it very much. Again... send me a PM, maybe I can help. We can even talk in German.

Originally Posted by oompaloompa (Post 884937)

You are on a stealth forum, peoples details are mis-used all the time....people register in random details from the phone book - They needed YOU to confirm all this info was indeed correct, and next step is to get your supplier info.

Originally Posted by walkingupwards (Post 884939)

O.k so now if they don't get the invoices, do you think they will go to court and force me to hand them over?

Originally Posted by rsot (Post 884945)

:faint: :faint:

Originally Posted by walkingupwards (Post 884948)

Bro, I am not really in mood to analyse what you mean by that :hail:

What do you think they'll do?

Originally Posted by dachilla (Post 884967)

Reached my PM limit for today and can't answer you anymore. One more thing: if you are really going provide the lawyer with the supplier info, make sure that you get something in writing that he will refrain from any further actions against you. Tomorrow is Friday, you still have a few days. Try to find a local lawyer that can help you out there or even call up the apple lawyer to find an agreement. Probably not the best idea to solve this all on your own.

Originally Posted by Lucynda (Post 884941)

I highly doubt Apple is going to force you into court and pay expensive legal fees and filing fees and all that crap over a few cables.

Originally Posted by Lucynda (Post 884941)

trying to get your supplier info so they can go after a bigger fish

Originally Posted by Lucynda (Post 884941)

The best advice would be to consult with your own attorney but don't contact them further until you do.

Originally Posted by dachilla (Post 884967)

Reached my PM limit for today and can't answer you anymore. One more thing: if you are really going provide the lawyer with the supplier info, make sure that you get something in writing that he will refrain from any further actions against you. Tomorrow is Friday, you still have a few days. Try to find a local lawyer that can help you out there or even call up the apple lawyer to find an agreement. Probably not the best idea to solve this all on your own.

Originally Posted by walkingupwards (Post 884968)

He made it clear in his first e-mail that he can't provide such a promise on behalf of Apple. Here is his first e-mail to me:

Originally Posted by oompaloompa (Post 884970)

NO!!! Do not tell OP to contact or supply invoices!!!
By all means get a lawyer, but really there is no need unless you are actually getting sued, and you will receive papers in the post for that.
OP has already told them too much. The lesson is, if someone calls you, you do not even confirm your name until you know who it is and what they want first....then you can opt for a/deny all knowledge,b/ deny you are named person or c/hang up........

Originally Posted by dachilla (Post 884971)

Reading it in German makes it way better to understand.

"Ohne hier einen Rechtsverzicht aussprechen zu können, gehe ich davon aus, dass meine Mandantin unter diesen Umständen"

This reads like: I can't promise that they won't sue your ass, but I am pretty darn sure they won't sue your ass if you cooperate.

So now my advise would be: cooperate, don't offer their **** anymore (at least not under your name), study stealth book for further ventures, and you'll most likely never hear from them again.

Originally Posted by walkingupwards (Post 884975)

Do you think they will accept the supplier info without the invoices?
:

Originally Posted by oompaloompa (Post 884978)

Well I agree they got all the info they need, however the legalities may be different, they may need it in writing for example - so in which case, why would a lawyer that phones up apple lawyer be better? How does it limit damage?

Originally Posted by oompaloompa (Post 884978)

Well I agree they got all the info they need, however the legalities may be different, they may need it in writing for example, unless taping a phone call is admissible in Germany for these types of cases, plus it is not really proper proof - so in which case, why would a lawyer that phones up apple lawyer be better? How does it limit damage?

If someone lawyers-up, the persons lawyer has to verify your identity for their own purposes and a paper trail is created.....how does that limit damage versus just a phone call.....

Did they call your landline or mobile/cell btw?

Originally Posted by dachilla (Post 884979)

Hard to answer that. Really I can't say, however as a German and as a lawyer I know it's the best way to play it here. An understanding between "colleagues" is almost like it's written in stone - at least when it comes to german lawyers.

Your ideas on the other hand don't limit the damage and are very much suitable for making the situation worse for OP. Ebay has records of the stuff offered on their website, do you think it magically disappears when the listing is taken down and you can just deny everything? The account is in his name, its his bank account attached. If it was a stealth account, I'd of course say go for it, deny any involvement. Even at this stage.

Originally Posted by walkingupwards (Post 884981)

I think in case of me receiving a cease and desist letter, I will just send them the modified "Unterlassungserklärung" (by a lawyer) and that's it. I won't pay anything until they go to court over the "Abmahnung" costs (which I highly doubt they will do).

Originally Posted by oompaloompa (Post 884984)

Ebay can have as many records as it likes, it does not mean it is the registered persons real details account. If the lawyer could ask for and discover the owner of bank account from paypal, then I would say different - but that takes alot more legalities,

cell phone call, disposable email and a phone call to 'registered user'....is all they have right now

What I would do is change personal sim in phone so they cannot get back in touch, and if a letter arrives, call up number on letter and with a different voice/accent, be outraged, tell them it does not pertain to you, and tell them never to bother you again or it will be harassment...

..I know it sounds simplistic to deny, but until they make a solid move, why risk revealing anything...you are handing them your a$s on a plate

lawyers they are for later in the day......after all the simple stuff has been tried first......for after they have got a court order to get paypal to reveal bank account and then another court order for the bank to reveal your details!!!!!

Originally Posted by walkingupwards (Post 884998)

I am already past this level, I can't deny anymore as the lawyer already made sure it is me.

Originally Posted by walkingupwards (Post 884975)

Do you think they will accept the supplier info without the invoices?

They won't sue, but the the lawyer could make a few thousands from sending the "Abmahnung" :doh:

Originally Posted by walkingupwards (Post 884480)

I sold generic iPhone charging cables (bought from China) and the problem is I used "Apple" in the title of my listing. The listing got reported by Markmonitor and got pulled down eventually. All of this happend in Sep/2017.

I contacted Markmonitor and asked why they reported the listing, got the usual response and then I did a very f***ed up mistake: I asked for the information of their legal representative in Germany.

2 days ago I got called by their lawyer in Germany and he was kinda nice on the phone, explained why the listing got pulled down and asked me to send him the invoices I got from my supplier. He told me that if I am cooperative I don't have to worry about a lawsuit from Apple because he will tell Apple that I was cooperative with him and as I am in Germany, he suspects nothing would come out of this.

After our phone call we contacted each other through e-mail. This is the e-mail I got from him today:


Dear Mr. XXX,

As I told you on the phone yesterday Apple asked me to take care of this matter now. There is no need to contact MarkMonitor as it is not their decision how to now proceed. I believe I explained to you yesterday your options how to resolve this matter hopefully in an amicable way. But getting back to MarkMonitor will not change anything.

Finally, I believe I explained sufficient clear in our call yesterday and in my subsequent email that we expect as a sign of cooperation that you provide us with your suppliers' invoices. If I do not hear back from you in this respect by next Tuesday, I will advise my client to now pursue further legal actions.

Best regards




I am afraid that if I send him the invoices he would be able to build a case against me and the invoices will be the 1st step in doing that!!

I contacted a lawyer few weeks ago and asked him what to do in case I receive a "Cease and dissest letter", I asked in the form of what he would do in such a case and his reply was:

If it were me I would not pay anything upon receiving such a letter, let Apple sue for the money first. They do that very seldomly



What do you think I should do? Should I send him the invoices or should I ignore him?

Do you think this a scaring tactic to get the invoices or are the threats legit?



P.S: I sold the cables on Ebay.de as I live in Germany.

Originally Posted by Yasav (Post 905068)

Just to make sure, they are differences in how you use word "Apple." For ex.

1) New Cable XYZ (fits Apple) - Brand: Unbranded

2) New Cable XYZ for Apple iPhone/etc - Brand: Unbranded

3) New Apple Cable XYZ - Brand: Apple

Correct me if I am wrong; but titles 1 and 2 shouldn't cause any issues. In my understanding, it's perfectly ok to reference another company or trademark if it's done so for fitment purposes only.

I think also you could have included a disclaimer at the end of the listing saying like

"Products carried by our store are not affiliated with nor endorsed by Apple Inc. Any trademarks mentioned are used for fitment purposes only and belong to their respective owners."

Originally Posted by Yasav (Post 905068)

Just to make sure, they are differences in how you use word "Apple." For ex.

1) New Cable XYZ (fits Apple) - Brand: Unbranded

2) New Cable XYZ for Apple iPhone/etc - Brand: Unbranded

3) New Apple Cable XYZ - Brand: Apple

Correct me if I am wrong; but titles 1 and 2 shouldn't cause any issues. In my understanding, it's perfectly ok to reference another company or trademark if it's done so for fitment purposes only.

I think also you could have included a disclaimer at the end of the listing saying like

"Products carried by our store are not affiliated with nor endorsed by Apple Inc. Any trademarks mentioned are used for fitment purposes only and belong to their respective owners."

Originally Posted by walkingupwards (Post 905092)

You're absolutely right, but here is how it goes with Markmonitor (the company that enforces Apple rights online):

If your listing contains the words "Apple" or "Lighting", your listing will be found by the web scrawler deployed by Markmonitor. Then they will take it down because the cables you're selling infringe on Apple designs. Apple does not just own the brand "Apple", it owns the designs of its products.

So hypothetically speaking, they could sue you even if you don't use the word "Apple" in your listing and even if you put that disclaimer in it.

I used to have a bookmark folder where I saved all listings of my competitors, many of them got taken down as well even though many of them followed your mentioned method.

There is a big seller that has more than one million in positive feedbacks, he has a listing for lightning cables and here is how his title reads:

"USB sync charging cable for iPhone iPad iPod"

His listing is in the top 5 results and selling over 400 sales/day. Business as usual and nobody seems to care. My point is, if you don't have a super conversion rate and use the above mentioned title, you chances of selling are slim to none!


I originally used the word "Apple" in my title because all almost all sellers were doing so and I need to match their wordings in order to appear in search results.

Originally Posted by Gladiator (Post 905103)

Well making replica "compatible" add-ons would go into a patent infringement/grey area. Even Nintendo, who is super friendly to third-parties, got involved in some lawsuits during the Wii era due to the replica nature of the products, even for long standing third party makers.