HMRC questions on an ex partners account

[Yandi23]

Hi Everyone,

I'll start by saying I'm actually a reasonably known member on this forum already but am posting on a new account as my ex partner knows my online alias which I used here.

Since November last year I've been using a private (non business) eBay account I registered using a partners second address, who I was with at the time. We separated shortly after in early December but I have been continuing to use the eBay account with payouts into my own bank account.
It was not an amicable break up and my concern is that if she were to be contacted by HMRC she may well claim I never had permission and effectively opened the account fraudulently. I'm not sure if this would cause me problems or not?

I'm self limiting sales to be in the region of £1800 per month gross which I don't exceed but wondering if this is at a level where eBay are likely to hand over details to HMRC, or if HMRC may notice this account in their dataset from eBay, as it's regular daily sales (not just one off big items).

I don't have an issue with declaring the tax if advisable at this level of sales but more concerned about my ex partner potentially claiming fraud if contacted by HMRC, and what implications of this may be? We are not in contact, I have since moved address and recently changed my phone number so she couldn't simply pass over my details for HMRC to see the tax had been paid by me or not, even if she wanted to. I assume any contact to her from HMRC if coming, would be after April 2024 as they would need to first see that tax was owed?

Or realistically am I likely to be fine just doing nothing? Everything I've said is worst case scenario.

Thanks

[Hank]

Beginning in early 2024 ebay, and all other selling platforms, will be required to send the income figures of all sellers (over £1000 I believe) to HMRC.

The data they supply to HMRC will be in the name of the account holder....you can see where this is going.

Plenty of article about this out there, here's one for starters:

https://www.icaew.com/insights/tax-n...-early-as-2023

[Freakzilla]

We all know this, but what will Inland Revenue actually do anything? Who knows. Will they come after people with stealth details? Again, we don't know.

Originally Posted by Hank

Beginning in early 2024 ebay, and all other selling platforms, will be required to send the income figures of all sellers (over £1000 I believe) to HMRC.

The data they supply to HMRC will be in the name of the account holder....you can see where this is going.

Plenty of article about this out there, here's one for starters:

https://www.icaew.com/insights/tax-n...-early-as-2023

[Hank]

Originally Posted by Freakzilla

We all know this, but what will Inland Revenue actually do anything? Who knows. Will they come after people with stealth details? Again, we don't know.

OP didn't seem to know, they won't be alone

I have said on the other threads about this issue that they will be swamped by data given the wide reach of folk it encompasses and that some will choose to wing it and play the safety in numbers game. I will agree that it will be impossible for them to track down some stealthers based upon (legitimate) bank account details alone even if they ever got that far into their new customer list. It stands to reason they'll have their hands full with those who make voluntary declarations and those who simply fold when, say, a threatening letter falls through the door.

Others, like me, won't be and I've already started the process of slowly making changes in an attempt to legitimise my accounts.

[Yandi23]

Thanks, I'm already aware about the tax crack down next year.
I'm most concerned if this could qualify as fraud or not if my ex partner said permission was never given? And if it might be seen as an attempt to avoid tax / tax fraud?
I'm not sure if the monthly sales involved are substantial enough to be worrying about either of these though.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by Yandi23

Thanks, I'm already aware about the tax crack down next year.
I'm most concerned if this could qualify as fraud or not if my ex partner said permission was never given? And if it might be seen as an attempt to avoid tax / tax fraud?
I'm not sure if the monthly sales involved are substantial enough to be worrying about either of these though.

Yes, yes and yes they are,

[peterjones]

If you report the income on your income tax form you will certainly be fine ....you were partners and nasty break ups with "he said she said" issues are of limited evidentiary value without corroborating evidence.

However I would strongly consider setting up a new ebay account not in your ex partners name

[degsey69]

Originally Posted by Yandi23

Thanks, I'm already aware about the tax crack down next year.
I'm most concerned if this could qualify as fraud or not if my ex partner said permission was never given? And if it might be seen as an attempt to avoid tax / tax fraud?
I'm not sure if the monthly sales involved are substantial enough to be worrying about either of these though.

A stealth account being created is not an offense, the reason is argued that is was created because eBay would prevent you from registering your own details and having an account. Nobody has been prosecuted in the UK or US for this as far as I am aware for creating stealth accounts. Your moral dilemma is to report those earnings to HMRC, which I would advise. Then you are not avoiding paying tax. Remember the sales are not the profits to be taxed but the net gain is. I would look into making the account a business one behind a LTD company and the details into the mechanics of doing it I will not go into. This would steer you around problems of the future.

[Yandi23]

Originally Posted by degsey69

A stealth account being created is not an offense, the reason is argued that is was created because eBay would prevent you from registering your own details and having an account. Nobody has been prosecuted in the UK or US for this as far as I am aware for creating stealth accounts. Your moral dilemma is to report those earnings to HMRC, which I would advise. Then you are not avoiding paying tax. Remember the sales are not the profits to be taxed but the net gain is. I would look into making the account a business one behind a LTD company and the details into the mechanics of doing it I will not go into. This would steer you around problems of the future.

Thanks but is a stealth account legally the same thing as an account in someone else's name who may claim it's not them and they know nothing about it, resulting in further HMRC investigation.

I guess they can fairly easily trace it to me through my real bank account and bank address so the "attempted fraud" is pretty minimal on my part. But are they likely to accept "I just made another account because eBay prevented me from registering my own details" or refer it onto a fraud team for further penalty / prosecution..

[degsey69]

The reason why it is not considered fraud is that you are not financially impacting the persons name you are putting on the account. Oxford English definition of fraud is “ wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain” as long as you declare the tax on the net gain of the account for work you have done i,e, selling, there is no criminal deception, especially against the old girl friend.

[murdered_by_ebay]

HMRC have had access to both ebay and amazon data for years , now it is more about brining everything in order so that every platform reports everyone

but I can assure you that ebay and amazon have been on the radar for a long time so that there are no secrets there

[Freakzilla]

I don't see how it can be done for existing Amazon accounts. What's your plan for them?

The data won't actually be passed to HMRC until the end of next year either.

I'm just not sure how this will work out.

Originally Posted by Hank

OP didn't seem to know, they won't be alone

I have said on the other threads about this issue that they will be swamped by data given the wide reach of folk it encompasses and that some will choose to wing it and play the safety in numbers game. I will agree that it will be impossible for them to track down some stealthers based upon (legitimate) bank account details alone even if they ever got that far into their new customer list. It stands to reason they'll have their hands full with those who make voluntary declarations and those who simply fold when, say, a threatening letter falls through the door.

Others, like me, won't be and I've already started the process of slowly making changes in an attempt to legitimise my accounts.

[Freakzilla]

It is fraud if you have submitted ⊗⊗⊗⊗ ID. Go and try opening a bank account with ⊗⊗⊗⊗ ID and find out.

Originally Posted by degsey69

The reason why it is not considered fraud is that you are not financially impacting the persons name you are putting on the account. Oxford English definition of fraud is “ wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain” as long as you declare the tax on the net gain of the account for work you have done i,e, selling, there is no criminal deception, especially against the old girl friend.

[rsot]

Originally Posted by peterjones

If you report the income on your income tax form you will certainly be fine ....you were partners and nasty break ups with "he said she said" issues are of limited evidentiary value without corroborating evidence.

However I would strongly consider setting up a new ebay account not in your ex partners name

best to avoid using old info

[rsot]

Welcome to the forum OP - all the best as you master stealth

YouTube (Short URL)

YouTube (Short URL)

[Hank]

Originally Posted by degsey69

The reason why it is not considered fraud is that you are not financially impacting the persons name you are putting on the account. Oxford English definition of fraud is “ wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain” as long as you declare the tax on the net gain of the account for work you have done i,e, selling, there is no criminal deception, especially against the old girl friend.

LOL, that's exactly what OP is doing.

He doesn't own the account and has no legal claim to it. It is deception, it is fraud. Go check out the UK police ActionFraud website for further info.

If his ex got wind of this wheeze then they could make life very difficult for them. Indeed, if, say, she was claiming benefits they'd almost certainly deem the account, and income, to be hers.

Can you imaging the ridiculous scenario where someone is on benefits but managing a very profitable ebay account and claiming that because the monies were going to their great grandmas account then the money wasn't theirs. Not happening.

I recognise that for this to go pear-shaped for OP they have to be challenged by their ex if they got mail regarding the account or if HMRC caught up with one or both of them. How they manage this risk, however small it might potentially be, is their business, but don't sugarcoat it will gibberish like "the reason is argued that is was created because eBay would prevent you from registering your own details and having an account". This isn't a stealth account, this is a genuine account with genuine implications and any aggrieved party couldn't care less about you being banned from ebay.

Times are changing, better to go into this with our eyes open and make an informed decision than to rely on meaningless hearsay.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by Freakzilla

I don't see how it can be done for existing Amazon accounts. What's your plan for them?

The data won't actually be passed to HMRC until the end of next year either.

I'm just not sure how this will work out.

TBH I don't know about Amazon. My accounts are semi-ligit, I created them because at the time it was one seller account per household and for tax evasion purposes.

Most likely scenario for me...I consolidate sales to two of the four accounts and register for VAT probably on the flat rate scheme.

I've toyed with the idea of creating a new account and setting it up in such a way as they would be deem separate entities if the VATman ever asked now they have relaxed the number of accounts you can have but I'm uncomfortable about Amazon finding a reason to suspend both.

I've been greedy for too many years now, I don't have a problem consolidating and legitimising my activities. Getting to old for the potential hassle...

[175tom]

Originally Posted by Hank

TBH I don't know about Amazon. My accounts are semi-ligit, I created them because at the time it was one seller account per household and for tax evasion purposes.

Most likely scenario for me...I consolidate sales to two of the four accounts and register for VAT probably on the flat rate scheme.

I've toyed with the idea of creating a new account and setting it up in such a way as they would be deem separate entities if the VATman ever asked now they have relaxed the number of accounts you can have but I'm uncomfortable about Amazon finding a reason to suspend both.

I've been greedy for too many years now, I don't have a problem consolidating and legitimising my activities. Getting to old for the potential hassle...

Sorry if this is a little off topic. I’ve just recently caught wind of this upon reading on the forums. I am not a business but I have sold in the past 2 years on a genuine account some house hold items which came to around £9,000. Im just wondering what this means for next year is all our information being passed on from what we have sold etc? All seems quite confusing to me. Thanks!

[agent006140]

If OP separated from his girlfriend on bad terms,why does he continue to use her account ??
She could get him into trouble as well,what if tax authority or creditor found out she is selling on Ebay,?
It does not matter if the bank account is not in her name.
Years ago there is a brick and mortar retailer who was audited by IRS ,they asked Ebay to furnish his Ebay account and sales figures,he ended up paying a six figures fine and tax to the government
(That was before this 1099k Paypal and AMZN have to send out)

[degsey69]

I would think that if the OP stopped using the girl friends account, declared any earnings from this eBay account on his tax self assessment he should not be worried.

Best advice get a better girl friend, open a LTD company, have her open a business account on eBay for the company and then remove her as director as replace her in Companies House as sole director.

[agent006140]

It is too late to stop using the ex 's account,he has been selling for dunno how long,you cant erase past sales.
what is the ex doing now?I am surprised she does not want to use her account to keep selling?

[degsey69]

It has only been 6 months that the account has been opened and if you look at the thread by the OP the girlfriend knows about this forum and his other Aspkin account name, so you can be safe to assume that she knew what he was doing. He is afraid that if HMRC contact her about the sales and tax owed that she will react spitefully, saying that she knows nothing about it so she is not liable for paying tax. As the sales reporting from ecommerce platforms does not start in the UK until next year they have no reason to contact her, there is no 1099 or variant of it, in the UK. So if he stops selling now he should be OK. He can close the account and his ex can open one up at a later date if needed.