Uk Stealth

[OldTom]

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

it does not change much , the actual tax reports need to be done by january 2025 so ebay will probably start requesting data in the first half of the year

the guidance was saying that the new data will need to be included in the onboarding process and active sellers would get their selling abilities limited if they do not provide the data on time , interestingly they said they specifically did not recommend to suspend anyone but just limit them , they probably fear mass death of tax payers

another interesting point is that HMRC decided not to request any data from foreign marketplaces with no establishment or business in the UK for UK sellers they might have , this is the main difference between DAC7 UK and DAC7 EU

Lets be clear on terminology, it's not a 'tax report' that sales platforms have to submit. Its sales data for each account.

I'm also struggling to accept that this November guidance dictated to sales platforms what their new account opening process should be, why have I seen no mention of it here nor can I find any HMRC link to this November briefing. When did your tax lawyer tell you it comes into effect then? You'd think that as the new rules come in from next week we should already be seeing it or can surely expect it within a matter of days? They've literally got 12 months before they start to hand over 2024 data. As I said, it's all very well saying that sellers will be limited but what punishment awaits, say, ebay if they don't. It's a hell of a task to undertake in a relatively short period of time.

And to add to this confusion, I/We are expected to believe that HMRC have given directives as to what sanctions are to be applied which aren't suspensions but some unknown 'limitations'. Sorry this is getting crazier by the moment and I think your tax lawyer is stringing you along. But I will accept that if true, then suspensions are more likely following the Amazon model. (which took ages to roll out).

As for fearing the death of the tax payer then that is ridiculous, most businesses on ebay, and even more on Amazon are already trading legitimately and have absolutely nothing to fear. How much tax they pay through their UTR is another matter and clearly of no concern to the sales platform.

This is an exercise in trying to identify those who are trading without declaring income, in principle HMRC should be rubbing their hands in glee not panicking given the wide reaching workplaces it encompasses beyond mere sales platforms.

We are all agreed that changes are afoot, I'm just struggling to get my head around some of the claims you've made because if true all I can see is carnage if true. I've put a lot of effort into deciding how to move forward with my stealth accounts and can't find anything relating to what you've said. Maybe I'm just useless in finding the same info your tax lawyer has.

One thing is for sure, this forum and the platforms own forums are going to be busy places if/when they start demanding National Insurance details.

I still think they're only expected to supply sales data for seller accounts but we'll wait and see. I always look to Amazon to be the leaders in matters like this given their historical awkward relationship with HMRC and they ain't doing it yet which I find hard to believe if it was already common knowledge as an imminent mandatory requirement.

I've mentioned it before, I'm going legit, and as I said above I've already converted one private tax-dodging account to a business and will just have to accept my crooked days are over. My other stealth accounts have stopped trading and I'll deal with them in due course and I'll see how this all plays out over the next year or two. If not without it's worries, it was good whilst it lasted......

[murdered_by_ebay]

I am sure the info is correct as HMRC go by DAC recommendations , amazon is meaningless here as they have been requesting a lot of data for years which are not mandatory

by the way amazon's latest genius idea , they have asked companies like wise etc. to supply information which bank accounts sellers use to withdraw amazon funds from there and said that they do not wish them to accept sellers who withdraw funds to other similar services instead of real banks

[OldTom]

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

I am sure the info is correct as HMRC go by DAC recommendations , amazon is meaningless here as they have been requesting a lot of data for years which are not mandatory

I'm going to stick my neck out and say it is not correct. I cannot believe that HMRC have told sales platforms what sanctions to apply to sellers which according to you, is not suspension but some kind of limitation. Nope, hasn't happened until you provide a link to the November guidance to prove this.

Ironically, Amazon may have collected a lot of seller information but not the one piece of information you're saying is very soon to be mandatory AND if they don't then HMRC will try and force the platform to impose seller sanctions. If you knew anything about Amazon you'd know that they'd be all over this kind of threat like a rash. Lets not forget HMRC don't make the law or have the right to tell businesses how to punish their clients - they are revenue collectors not lawmakers although I will concede they try very hard to blur this line.

Lets wait and see how it pans out, but at the risk off offending, lets keep it factual from now on and avoid hearsay clap-trap.

[murdered_by_ebay]

yes you think so , read carefully which penalties are imposed for non-compliance "per case"

[OldTom]

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

yes you think so , read carefully which penalties are imposed for non-compliance "per case"

Okay, I'm all for adding to my understanding, but what penalties against whom am I reading about, what is it's relevance to current matters and where do I find it?

I'm pretty comfortable saying that sales platforms have not buried their head in the sand and are ignoring issues which could attract a flood of legally enforceable penalties.

But if you are right and it is common knowledge that NI numbers are mandatory, with enforceable sanctions, and they've still not started collecting them them bigger fools them. Just can't get my head round the fact than not one of them has even started yet!

Anyway, whilst I don't believe some of what you've posted let me simply repeat what I said earlier. Changes are afoot, it's an important issue, and for the sake of accuracy let keep it to facts and information we can verify which as far as I can se is quite simply 'sales platforms will be required to send sales data for each account to HMRC beginning in 2025 for the period 2024. Literally nothing more.

[Jackies]

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

it does not change much , the actual tax reports need to be done by january 2025 so ebay will probably start requesting data in the first half of the year

the guidance was saying that the new data will need to be included in the onboarding process and active sellers would get their selling abilities limited if they do not provide the data on time , interestingly they said they specifically did not recommend to suspend anyone but just limit them , they probably fear mass death of tax payers

another interesting point is that HMRC decided not to request any data from foreign marketplaces with no establishment or business in the UK for UK sellers they might have , this is the main difference between DAC7 UK and DAC7 EU

This is indeed a significant difference, a plus for you

[murdered_by_ebay]

NIN is already actively used as main tax number in the UK in various places , for example on certain savings accounts it is the NIN number that is needed for taxation

[13obby]

Following this thread

[Freakzilla]

I have been all over this subject, and haven't seen this anywhere.

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

HMRC asked marketplaces to collect national insurance numbers from individuals and company numbers from corporations , UTR will not be asked for

[Freakzilla]

I just found this:

https://www.taylorwessing.com/en/ins...ital-platforms

[13obby]

Originally Posted by Freakzilla

I just found this:

https://www.taylorwessing.com/en/ins...ital-platforms

Basically this confirms what murdered_by_ebay stated and does not look good for stealth accounts nor for anyone avoiding to pay tax in the UK.

[Freakzilla]

Still really unsure about this. The marketplaces will need to get everyone's National Insurance number to conform. Gonna be a massive undertaking for them to enforce this.

Originally Posted by 13obby

Basically this confirms what murdered_by_ebay stated and does not look good for stealth accounts nor for anyone avoiding to pay tax in the UK.

[13obby]

Originally Posted by Freakzilla

Still really unsure about this. The marketplaces will need to get everyone's National Insurance number to conform. Gonna be a massive undertaking for them to enforce this.

Personally if thats the case then they’ll need to comply and do so or face penalties.

Just more crap to deal with not sure how stealth will continue.

[OldTom]

Originally Posted by Freakzilla

I just found this:

https://www.taylorwessing.com/en/ins...ital-platforms

Great find, thank you for posting the link.

100% happy to (mostly) stand corrected.

I wonder why murdered-by-ebay failed to share this link, it's clearly the 'tax lawyer' they were 'talking to', they've quoted some of it almost verbatim.

LOL, remember thinking yesterday "who calls signing-up 'onboarding', but I know what he means, just a weird choice of words".

Massive undertaking for sales platforms, on the plus side, there's some implied wiggle room for them.

Anyway, lets see how it plays out. It's dark days ahead for stealthers and even those of us who borrowed legitimate details and why I'm going as legit as I can.

I know it could be said that it's right and proper but this is just one of many examples of what happens when governments and even global unelected bodies start taking enforced control of every aspect of our lives.

Won't be long before our electric cars, flights and heating will be rationed, our credit cards have a carbon footprint spending allowance, and our pets will be taxed for farting. I'm of an age where I almost don't care, I feel sorry for anyone under the age of 30, the future looks bleak.

Good luck for the future guys.

[Freakzilla]

I maybe wrong, as there was a lot to read from the .gov website, but it mentioned giving platforms additional time to obtain the information for existing sellers.

[13obby]

Originally Posted by Freakzilla

I maybe wrong, as there was a lot to read from the .gov website, but it mentioned giving platforms additional time to obtain the information for existing sellers.

Nope your right existing sellers will be given time but new sellers will be required to to provide National Insurance or UTR upon registration also National Insurance numbers cannot be verified but HMRC will provide guide lines inline with formats for ebay look out for as to UTR this can be verified and checked by ebay i think so anyway someone correct me if i’m wrong.

[Freakzilla]

Mu understanding is they can check the algorithm of a UTR number, but they can't tell who it relates to, or if it is in use.

[murdered_by_ebay]

Originally Posted by OldTom

Great find, thank you for posting the link.

100% happy to (mostly) stand corrected.

I wonder why murdered-by-ebay failed to share this link, it's clearly the 'tax lawyer' they were 'talking to', they've quoted some of it almost verbatim.

LOL, remember thinking yesterday "who calls signing-up 'onboarding', but I know what he means, just a weird choice of words".

Massive undertaking for sales platforms, on the plus side, there's some implied wiggle room for them.

Anyway, lets see how it plays out. It's dark days ahead for stealthers and even those of us who borrowed legitimate details and why I'm going as legit as I can.

I know it could be said that it's right and proper but this is just one of many examples of what happens when governments and even global unelected bodies start taking enforced control of every aspect of our lives.

Won't be long before our electric cars, flights and heating will be rationed, our credit cards have a carbon footprint spending allowance, and our pets will be taxed for farting. I'm of an age where I almost don't care, I feel sorry for anyone under the age of 30, the future looks bleak.

Good luck for the future guys.

it is because the same guidance with identical information is sent out by HMRC to all interested parties

it was obvious that tax ID in the UK is the NIN , there are no other choices left which cover the entire population

and whether you believe it or not , it was written after consultation with ebay and co. as initial guidance had been sent in the summer where HMRC asked the marketplaces to give recommendations

onboarding is the exact term used by adyen in their documentation where they give instructions to their customers on how to process information and forward it to them , obviously NIN will now be linked to MP

[Freakzilla]

So wat's your plan bro?

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

it is because the same guidance with identical information is sent out by HMRC to all interested parties

it was obvious that tax ID in the UK is the NIN , there are no other choices left which cover the entire population

and whether you believe it or not , it was written after consultation with ebay and co. as initial guidance had been sent in the summer where HMRC asked the marketplaces to give recommendations

[murdered_by_ebay]

Originally Posted by Freakzilla

Still really unsure about this. The marketplaces will need to get everyone's National Insurance number to conform. Gonna be a massive undertaking for them to enforce this.

they will probably just collect it like they do on document ID numbers when you start selling on ebay.com from europe , there is a red window appearing and asking to add the number , you add it , it disappears and it's done

[JamesNorth101]

Originally Posted by Freakzilla

Mu understanding is they can check the algorithm of a UTR number, but they can't tell who it relates to, or if it is in use.

100% correct.

[murdered_by_ebay]

Originally Posted by Freakzilla

So wat's your plan bro?

you add the number