I owe PayPal $62,000 because of a scammer, please help!

[phaz0rz]

Your buyer may have intended to chargeback you all along if they were insisting on Paypal for all payments. The person could have known this was an extremely high risk product that Paypal would happily allow them to dispute after they've had the opportunity to make tens of thousands of dollars selling the watches.

Lesson learnt there I guess.

[ray]

I got your point, I learned my lessons and thanks for the tips

Originally Posted by agent006140

the way I look at such situation is that -
if he really wants to do the deal,he would meet your terms!
Supermarkets sell money order for a low low fee to get customers into their store,some also offer Western union ,USPS sell postal orders,domestic bank wiretransfer $45,intl wire transfer $55.
Japanese and Canadian post office sell US $ postal orders,fair exchange rate ,and you can cash it free at USPS post office with proper ID,if deposited in your bank,it may charge a small fee.
Most folks can always find a supermarket,post office,bank or currency exch place within driving distance,if not,they can do it online.

[ray]

Exactly, lesson learnt

Originally Posted by phaz0rz

Your buyer may have intended to chargeback you all along if they were insisting on Paypal for all payments. The person could have known this was an extremely high risk product that Paypal would happily allow them to dispute after they've had the opportunity to make tens of thousands of dollars selling the watches.

Lesson learnt there I guess.

[agent006140]

There is a similar case 1-2 years ago of a guy from USA ,he sold electronics goods to a guy in Eastern Europe,he paid using PAYPAL/AMEX card.
The guy prefers USPS first class shipping instead of USPS priority to save on shipping and avoid customs attention,the seller went along with it,shipping USPS first class with no tracking and signature confirmation
It went well for months,then he filed chargeback with AMEX.
The poor seller submitted all the shipping labels ,tracking showing it has left USA and all the correspondence between 2 parties,but nothing Paypal can do for him,AMEX ruled in buyer favor!
the amount is in 5 figures but nowhere close to $62K .
USPS intl first class.parcel select,media and priority envelope,small box have no tracking once it left USA,and none including express have signature confirmation,registered mail has signature but maynot be viewable online.
What he sold are smart phones and accessories,very saleable in Eastern Europe,the buyer made good money but Greed ,he wants to make more by paying zero for the goods .

[nickopedia]

Originally Posted by agent006140

There is a similar case 1-2 years ago of a guy from USA ,he sold electronics goods to a guy in Eastern Europe,he paid using PAYPAL/AMEX card.
The guy prefers USPS first class shipping instead of USPS priority to save on shipping and avoid customs attention,the seller went along with it,shipping USPS first class with no tracking and signature confirmation
It went well for months,then he filed chargeback with AMEX.
The poor seller submitted all the shipping labels ,tracking showing it has left USA and all the correspondence between 2 parties,but nothing Paypal can do for him,AMEX ruled in buyer favor!
the amount is in 5 figures but nowhere close to $62K .
USPS intl first class.parcel select,media and priority envelope,small box have no tracking once it left USA,and none including express have signature confirmation,registered mail has signature but maynot be viewable online.
What he sold are smart phones and accessories,very saleable in Eastern Europe,the buyer made good money but Greed ,he wants to make more by paying zero for the goods .

Yep, that's American Express.

AMEX by far has the most liberal rules when it comes to deciding in favor of the consumer on charge backs, even without proof. They are their own bank and make the rules, and it's possible to charge back well past the 540 days for an INR or NAD case as with Visa/MC. I've even seen cases where the charge back occurred YEARS later for an AMEX customer.

[agent006140]

But the seller should have known better,buyer is claiming he did not receive the goods.
If he has shipped with tracking ,he would win the dispute.
And he did not take out any insurance either.

[rsot]

Originally Posted by nickopedia

Yep, that's American Express.

AMEX by far has the most liberal rules when it comes to deciding in favor of the consumer on charge backs, even without proof. They are their own bank and make the rules, and it's possible to charge back well past the 540 days for an INR or NAD case as with Visa/MC. I've even seen cases where the charge back occurred YEARS later for an AMEX customer.

Sad but true - another reason why many shops (at least up here) don't take Amex besides % fees, etc

[james_112233]

AMEX usually have annual membership fees as well unlike many Visa/MC cards. I guess the protection AMEX offer to consumers is worth every penny then.

[agent006140]

You also get better customer service,those online live chat guys/gals know Paypal/Ebay/AMZn well.
First year membership is free.
Years ago,when AMEX learns a certain merchant is not accepting AMEX,it will ask for its phone number so it can call him,probably offer him a good deal to accept AMEX card,dont know how it is done now.

[H4ck]

if paypal were to put a 62k balance on your credit report you can always challenge them in court for it and bring your evidence.......

paypal might back down before you head to court and just let it go.

if you sold authentic watches, then you should have all the necessary invoices to prove its authenticity to the judge.

The judge will just waive the judgement and take any negative marks from paypal off your credit report.

represent your case to a judge in court against paypal

if the buyer stole from you, contact the fbi, 62k is not a small sum. fbi will prosecute the buyer big time.

bring all invoices proving authenticity, and fbi police report with you to court..............paypal will be more sympathetic as the day goes along in court....

[nickopedia]

H4ck is correct. If you are truly the victim of fraud, you have options.

You can start by filing a police report both in your local jurisdiction, as well as where the buyer is located. Have you already done this? If not, why?

Since you say you are in the UK, You can also complete an affidavit of fraud, which you can get for a low cost from a solicitor or Trading Standards. Brits usually take this type of thing a bit more seriously than in the USA. it doesn't take a lot of effort to find out what you need to do online and present PayPal with your evidence.

On the other hand, if you are really selling counterfeit watches, knowingly or not, you have other problems to contend with. That could be why you have not involved the authorities as of yet?

[agent006140]

OP is in UK,the paypal account he used belonged to someone in USA,he bought these watches from someone in Canada and the buyer who filed $62k chargeback is in USA.
This buy bought 500 Michael Kors watches from him and resell them to others,these others sold them on WMT site and get many returns.
So OP is not getting the chargeback as it aint his Paypal account and he is not going to get a bad rep with his UK credit rating.
It depends on how Paypal deals with such situation,would it go after both OP and the Paypal account holder?
of course Paypal has more resources,but how far does it want to get involved in this case ,would exposing all these players help it Not to eat that $62k?

[nickopedia]

Originally Posted by agent006140

OP is in UK,the paypal account he used belonged to someone in USA,he bought these watches from someone in Canada and the buyer who filed $62k chargeback is in USA.
This buy bought 500 Michael Kors watches from him and resell them to others,these others sold them on WMT site and get many returns.
So OP is not getting the chargeback as it aint his Paypal account and he is not going to get a bad rep with his UK credit rating.
It depends on how Paypal deals with such situation,would it go after both OP and the Paypal account holder?
of course Paypal has more resources,but how far does it want to get involved in this case ,would exposing all these players help it Not to eat that $62k?

You bring up some valid points. I agree, as many other posters here do that the OP's situation sounds fishy as sardines.

That said, we don't have the actual truth. If we give the OP the benefit of the doubt and say his watches were 100% authentic pieces, then it would seem logical to involve the authorities given the amount of money involved, wouldn't it?

Can the OP give any reason why he didn't contact The Met, National Crime Agency, Trading Standards, or his local Ombudsman? as of yet?

If this happened to me, I would be reporting it formally to just about every agency I could think of, as well as involving an attorney, or solicitor as they are called in Britain. This not only adds credibility to your claim, but may protect you from PayPal's threats at the same time.

[agent006140]

Originally Posted by H4ck

if paypal were to put a 62k balance on your credit report you can always challenge them in court for it and bring your evidence.......

paypal might back down before you head to court and just let it go.

if you sold authentic watches, then you should have all the necessary invoices to prove its authenticity to the judge.

The judge will just waive the judgement and take any negative marks from paypal off your credit report.

represent your case to a judge in court against paypal

if the buyer stole from you, contact the fbi, 62k is not a small sum. fbi will prosecute the buyer big time.

bring all invoices proving authenticity, and fbi police report with you to court..............paypal will be more sympathetic as the day goes along in court....

can and will Paypal ding his credit when it is not his Paypal account which is getting a chargeback?it should ding his friend's credit.
also there is no Paypal seller protection for item not as described,buyer cc issuer is the one who should be convinced these are not counterfeit watches,not Paypal .
The only way to prove these Michael Kors watches are not counterfeit is to expose the seller in Canada,where did he get these 500 watches?
It should not be too difficult to find out,Michael Kors would be able to trace where they come from?

[agent006140]

There are several websites which tell how to spot counterfeit Michael Kors watches.
If his watches sold on WMT site have a high return rate,the buyers must have checked authenticity to come to the conclusion they are not authentic.
The best way to find out is to contact Michael Kors and Company,they would be able to tell if these watches are authentic and if not,they would need to find out and persecute the manufacturer and the Canadian who sold him 500 ,how many watch companies can turn out 500 Michael Kors watches for one order??
Think !

[agent006140]

hate to sound like a parrot,tell your buyer to close the chargeback,Once you upload the Canadian vendor invoice of 500 Michael Kors watches,Paypal or the cc issuer can contact Michael Kors and Company and find out if he is a legit wholesaler/distributor.
Ask if any one of you (you,your friend with the paypal account,the buyer and the CANADIAN WHOLESALER want that to happen)
Also close this thread if possible !!!!!!

[james_112233]

@agent006140

Aaaand take a deep breath.

[rdh4life]

Well I thought id check this story out as its quite interesting...funnily enough i had something a bit similar (well slightly) happen to me..i bought a iphone xr off ebay and the seller shipped the item..guess what i open the item and its some no brand ebay watch!! Paypal wouldn't refund me as he had a tracking number and delivered scan and they at first tried to tell me i had no proof a watch was shipped..uk police didn't give a crap but i was a furious..so i looked at the weight of a actual phone versues what he sent...there was a difference..i also noted royal mail don't allow you to send phones because of the battery so put this to paypal too..after 3-4 phone calls i got someone who agreed and i got a full refund with some help from a few emails from royal mail..it does go to show that sometimes if you have nothing to lose go for it (oh and btw i only buy and sell on ebay stealths too so all this was on a stealth account.) ...

However i am still baffled by this all..am a ex-banker and the UK rules with most banks are 180 days for chargeback since the transaction date..as standard practise the bank will ask the customer what contact they made with you to try and resolve the matter..i would be asking paypal to see the chargeback full sheet sent by the bank..can u not contact the bank or have paypal not given that info?
id deffo seek legal advice too as it sounds like someones run a scam on you and is laughing on a beach with 62k

[agent006140]

if someone sent you a watch instead of a phone,you should open a case of item not as described (not item not received) ,then Ebay 30 days Money back guarantee will send you a shipping label to return the watch with tracking,once delivered,you get your money back and shipping cost will be charged to seller's Ebayseller account.
If non Ebay,then Paypal will make you return the item at your own expense,unless you have applied for free return before purchase.
all these are handled by bots,no need to call anyone.

[rsot]

Truly an epic thread status is deserved here.

[agent006140]

Paypal owns the merchant account,as far as the banks are concerned,they are dealing with a merchant called Paypal,we are sub accounts within Paypal,they dont know us.
Paypal does not have to disclose any communication between them and the bank which issue the credit cards .
This is the disadvantage of not having your own merchant account to process credit card transactions.
BTW,Paypal will forward whatever you give them in a chargeback case,it will also send along some of its own findings such as audit trails like IP address etc in case of Unauthorised transaction.

[phaz0rz]

I know. And that's the problem when it comes to chargebacks on PP. You aren't using a real merchant account so you aren't entitled to see the sensitive information on the chargeback documentation (such as the full CC #, which shows when you use a real merchant account and you get a chargeback notice in the mail).

Anyway I was just pointing out that Paypal will not turn over the chargeback paperwork they get from the financial institution to the seller, so what rdh4life was suggesting will not work.