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Old 09-25-2009
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Default Interesting claim, ebay/paypal, input appreciated!

Hey guys,

This is kind of long, but I swear it’s probably the most interesting paypal/ebay case you’ve ever heard…. And I need help!!

On Sept 3rd I sold a microscope on ebay, auction style.

In the auction I displayed 12 high-resolution pictures, all showing it to be in excellent condition with no defects (as it really was in excellent condition). I also wrote in the description that it was in excellent condition.

I noted under “return policy” that “This seller will not accept returns for this item” – even though I know paypal couldn’t care less about this part of the contract…

Anyways, an ebay member from Germany won the microscope for $1,725 and payed with paypal.

Here’s where things begin to get fishy….

During checkout, in the “notes” section, the buyer wrote:

“please send the M5 to the following address
(an address that was different from his paypal confirmed address”
thank you very much
cheers
(his name)”


Immediately I was concerned. But, I looked through the buyer’s feedback and all 43 left were positive, so I figured the buyer was legit.

So I packaged the microscope up and went to USPS to ship the item. After being burned in the past shipping item overseas, I decided to ship the microscope USPS Express mail with signature confirmation (the most secure they offer). When I asked to insure it for $1800, the person at the window told me the maximum insurance amount for Germany was $500. They stated I couldn’t add insurance to it… I said fine, and sent it insured for $500 since I didn’t have any other choice.

I sent the microscope on Sept 17th.

Well, today (Sept 25th) I woke up to an email from paypal stating:

“Hello (my name),
(his name) has opened a dispute for the payment made on Sep 4, 2009
indicating that the item they received did not match the original
description. By opening this dispute, (his name) is asking for your help to resolve
this issue. This is your best opportunity to resolve this problem before
the buyer escalates it to a PayPal claim or files a chargeback with their
card issuer.”


I logged into my paypal account, and as I suspected, paypal had deducted the amount of $1725 from my balance, so I am now -$1676.

In the paypal dispute this was the message from the buyer:

“Hi (my name), the microscope M5-31919 has reached damaged the custom in Germany. At present it is for inspection at the DHL office in Neumünster to clarify and varify that the packing was O.K.In case the packing was not reasonable the insurance might not pay. That is why I contacted Paypal.Sorry for the inconvenience, but I also spent the half day at the custom and post offices. Regards”

I responded in the paypal comments area with:

“Hi, The package was shipped from the US with the USPS express mail which comes with insurance to the maximum amount. When it reaches Germany another shipping company takes over. The number from the USPS is (tracking no). The customs number is PSN: (number). This is all the info that's given, thanks.

Can you please cancel the case temporarily !? Paypal has deducted this amount from my paypal account and my bank is now at a negative balance this is serious! Please i will do whatever i can to help you in this matter, i just cannot afford to go into debt, thank you!”


The buyer responded to my personal email stating:

“I am Sorry about that, but I am also somehow debt. By the way before I contactet paypal I wrote you an e-mail about the problem.
Since I had bad experience before because of time running short (I have only 45 days), I just wanted to be on the save side. I did not know that paypal will direct dedact the money from your account. Anyhow give me some hints what you are going to do for settling the problem. As long there is no precise idea I will not withdraw from paypal. Because if I close the case it will be difficult or impossible to claim again with paypal. Another one which worries me a little is that the deal was very anonymous.”


I emailed him back telling him:

“You sent me the original email notifying me of the problem at my US time of 6:55am, i am sleeping at that time don't forget. Please send me pictures of the parts that are damaged, i may have parts here. From what you explained to be broken, there isn't a total loss only separate parts damaged. If insurance doesn't come through i will either send you the new parts or send money to replace them. I am an honest seller and will make this right as long as you are honest with me. I understand your worry with paypal, but if you do not close the case for the moment i won't even be able to help you with this matter as i don't have any money... thanks for your consideration.”

I emailed him back requesting he take pictures of the damage, and he responded with this email with an attached picture of a “watermarked” copy of the auction picture with a superimposed arrow pointing to one of the eyepieces:

“on the picture you can see where it is broken and the prisma has scratches. I ask at microscope company already if they can repair it. The scope is for inspection at the DHL an I can not send you a photo yet.”

So I went to my local post office to ask what I should do. I gave them the slips I received, and they looked up the tracking on their computer. They stated that the tracking doesn’t even state it was delivered!!?? This is what it states:

Label/Receipt Number: (tracking number)
Class: Express Mail International®
Service(s): Insured
Status: Attempted Delivery Abroad

We attempted to deliver your item in GERMANY at 3:17 PM on September 23, 2009.

Attempted Delivery Abroad, September 23, 2009, 3:17 pm, GERMANY Out of Foreign Customs, September 21, 2009, 3:15 pm, GERMANY Into Foreign Customs, September 21, 2009, 3:15 pm, GERMANY Into Foreign Customs, September 20, 2009, 5:14 pm, GERMANY Arrived Abroad, September 20, 2009, 5:13 pm, GERMANY International Dispatch, September 18, 2009, 10:15 am, ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) Arrival Processed through Sort Facility, September 17, 2009, 5:20 pm, PROVIDENCE, RI 02904 Acceptance, September 17, 2009, 12:58 pm, (my city), RI 02917


What the heck!? I sent the microscope on the 17th, the usps person telling me it would arrive the following day. The buyer told me he got it YESTERDAY, but the tracking online states it was never delivered, only “attempted” on the 23rd.

USPS gave me a number for the “international mail” branch, I crumpled it up and threw it out. I’ve contacted them before about something, nothing came of it.

So what the heck do I do?? The buyer placed the claim on paypal, but hasn’t actually sent it to claim. He’s got until Oct 15th to do so.

Why is DHL getting involved? I sent this USPS, shouldn’t USPS have to do the inspection? My guess is that DHL is going to decide that the packaging wasn’t prepared correctly, and that they will not grant him insurance. So then he will look to me for help.

I have no money. I am a 20yr old college student, have $5 in my wallet, lost my job, $300 in my bank account, and now apparently negative $1676 in my paypal account. I do have spare parts for this same microscope (I fix stuff in the science lab at school) but am not sure I am obligated since I paid for $500 in insurance.

Another concern is the fact that the tracking info for the package states it was never actually delivered. AND, AND, I shipped it to the un-confirmed address he noted in the checkout details, a different address than his verified paypal address (but still in Germany). So i guess paypal will never know i sent it to the different address, since the tracking only states the country, not the city or street address.

If/when he sends the claim to paypal, what do I make as my case? I know not to argue about my return policy, as in the past paypal didn’t buy it.

Now, since he made this claim as an “item not as described”, could I argue that the package was never delivered in the first place (based on the tracking), arguing that it cannot be “not as described” if it was never delivered? I’m only asking this because I know if you make a claim stating it’s “not as described”, you cannot make another claim stating it “wasn’t delivered”, or visa versa. You can make only one, of one type of claim.

I could argue that he is lying about it’s condition because it was never delivered, I could lie and state it was returned back to me maybe??

Or could I click on paypal to have this case sent to claim NOW, because I know they will only give him maybe 10 days to insert pictures of the damage, and I doubt they will give it back to him before then- or will they?


What would you suggest I do guys? No way will I be granting a full refund, taking the broken thing back... I don’t think it arrived to him broken, I packaged it VERY well, I’ve sold a few of these in the past the same way, there’s no way what he’s describing could have actually happened. And he doesn’t have pictures!! He already sent it back to DHL for “inspection”, how can he make a claim if it’s not in his possession?

Thanks for any help/input!
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  #2  
Old 09-26-2009
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ok, Im sure you will get many answers on this, I am not sure the buyer is telling a lie on this one but you never know, with his good prior fb maybe he should be given benefit of the doubt. He is right if he closed claim on paypal it cannot be reopened, there is no temp closure system.

So it is delivered right, assume that as he is saying it is, forget attempted that may be they tried and then redelivered mess up on wording.

Paypal deducted the money completely, and given it to him, they did not put it on hold? I think thats what you mean right? The money hasnt been refunded yet?

So it is up to the guy to claim from his side on the insurance right? That is all you can wait for, if there is an inspection, and if the insurance wont pay, you will have the money deducted in the end of this - no doubt, it is not up to you to grant it, paypal will take it.

Next option he communicates with you and you send him very very well packaged spares, more cost to you, right, and if he is not happy?

Ok, as last resort, you will receive item back I assume, is he asking YOU to pay for the return? Thats another cost, however what you find as you say may be salvagible with a few spares. Microscopes are full of glass bits right? No, I would not ship that sort of expensive equipment anywhere , especially abroad, too delicate, too risky for you.

You need to insist on pictures of broken parts though - Ive seen before where this is the major part of the story that doesnt add up, the proof..

paypal will back you up on NOTHING, why? buyer can do a chargeback anyway and so paypal will let you lose rather than them, end of story...

Really sorry about what happened to you, good luck with your studies, one day you will be in a different financial position...
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Old 09-26-2009
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Wow, very interesting.

I suggest calling paypal and tell them he is lying about receiving the item since USPS clearly states it was not even delivered. I have to believe paypal must side in your favor due the buyer lying to you.
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Old 09-26-2009
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I think buyer has received item, otherwise why would they state they have, they would say not received dispute.....

Going to paypal with the delivery ingo saying attempted, whilst buyer says received, not sure how paypal would react to that, it still involves a non receipt dispute ultimately....

Has the postal service confirmed not delivered? If you get that then surely a claim can be made through that reason, which helps you more...

Its way too confusing right now, you need to clarify 2 things, delivered or not
confirmation from poatal service and pictures of damage from buyer
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Old 09-26-2009
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WOW....First, take a deep breath and relax. There are many options available to you, but try to refrain from taking a stance of "no way am I accepting the item back." If you truly have the parts to fix the item, then accept a return, fix the item, and resale it in the US only. A lesson learned is to never ship anything without full insurance.

You have many options available. International tracking is dicey. It seems unlikely he is lying.


Try to be calm, and work it out. Offer him a settlement. There are options in Paypal to offer a partial refund, If he accepts, the claim will be closed and your funds, less the offer will be returned..
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Old 09-26-2009
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In all honesty, i think he did indeed receive the item, i just don't think it was actually broken, because he's already trying to claim insurance before even contacting me first. Here is the email i woke up to today:

"when I went to the custom office to pay the tax, they always ask me to open the parcels. When they saw the damage the insisted that it has to be brought back to the DHL for insurance claim, and they would not do any clearing. I am sure you understand that I would not pay tax for something broken. You have no idea how time consuming it is to deal with the custom here. We have to wait a couple of days until I get a reply from DHL.Your postal company is having an agreement with DHL, therefore it should not cause any problems with insurance.
I cannot close the case with PayPal as yet because one time closed the case never can be claimed again, sorry for the inconvenience.
By the way I short inspected the m5 only for a second at the custom and it the description you gave at ebay -It's only been used a few times, and has been stored on a shelf in my research lab- is far different. The magnification ring was so lose that it hardly stopped at the detent. This is only the case if it is excessively used. I am a precision mechanic as well as biologist and I know from what I talking.
If you send another one in good working order, better than the one which is in inspection I could agree on to arrange the return immediately after the 'new' microscope reach the German border. I do not want a repaired M5.
I also could send it back to you immediately and we settle the problem this way. M5 back -money back."


What the heck is he talking about, the company telling him to open it?? "When they saw the damage they told me to make a claim"??? Why would they ever do that??

This guy is not going to accept anything "repaired" only a new one- which i don't have. I have access to a few parts here and there, nothing that could accumulate a new one.

He is a scammer. He probably has one of these microscopes with an eyepiece broken. So he buys mine, switches the parts and claims mine was broken to get his money back. It's not like you can buy the parts separately, and he knows that. These microscopes are 50yrs old. The type of injury he is explaining doesn't happen in shipping, it just doesn't make sense. That is why i am being so argumentative- i know he's pulling the wool over my eyes.

I emailed him back stating he would NEED to return it to me ASAP, asking again the exact date he will be getting it back from DHL.

I will not accept a broken microscope in return for the sale price, i'm not taking that hit, especially because he is a liar. I do have the part he's talking about but it's not free. I'd have to be sneaky and switch the parts with one in our lab, which i don't even feel comfortable doing.

I really want to know how much longer the DHL is going to have it for inspection for. If they aren't giving it back to him after 10 days, then i could send the paypal claim to be reviewed NOW, and they would give him 10 days to post pictures. If he doesn't send pictures then he's screwed. I'm awaiting his response...

My other idea is, i'll have him send it back to me BEFORE he sends the case on paypal to be reviewed. When i get it back, i'll send the paypal claim to be reviewed. At that point they will ask him for pictures, which he won't have since it'll be in my possession at that time. Then since he can't prove it was in his possession broken, i will mention the tracking never stated delivered, and i'd have it in my possession, ill state it was returned. If he keeps the tracking from when he sent it to me, i'll just say i "got a box with a brick in it", paypal won't be able to determine the truth.
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Old 09-26-2009
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i dont think you should've taken it back so soon. i think the buyer is a scammer as well, probabyly replacing parts on his with yours (although its a pretty expensive tactic for a scammer). You should have called paypal and explained to them everything thats going on, fax them copies of your communication with the buyer and all. as well as what the tracking is / was showing at the time the buyer started the claim. One thing to remember is most sellers can't leave negative feedback so chances are you will never know if s/he has scammed somebody in the past
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Old 09-26-2009
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now he wants replacement before sending the other back - no way Jose

Either he gets a spare part sent to him you get from your lab, or the item needs to come back to you first, then you can do a refund. No other option should be given.
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Old 09-26-2009
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Honestly, at this point I would recommend you detach your bank account from your paypal account before paypal can get to your $$$ before you do anything else. Also put a hold on any bank withdrawals for the next week as well to ensure you're not out $1700...hopefully your PP isn't fully correct

But I agree with oompaloompa above-
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Old 09-26-2009
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Good advise Upsidedown! The German guy is a scammer. Who says he didn't buy this Ebay account with some good feedback on it, and now is ready to scam innocent people...Shipping to Germany, PP address unconfirmed- does not match the PaYpal address on buyer's account... Red flags all over the place!!!! Than he claims "not as described" and tracking shows that item even not delivered yet? Red flag again.. As Upsidedown said, first thing Monday morning you go close the bank account linked to PayPal, than call PayPal and explain you suspect scam see what they say. Be ready to fax in all the tracking info, and email correspondence with dates on it....

For God sake, the guy wants brand new microscope "to reach German borders" (that right there is the wording mostly scammers use), before he will ship the "damaged" one back?
If he ever does send the first one back, make sure you open the package in the presence of the postal worker and have the camera to take pictures right there.

I just hope you'll learn from it. Have to be very careful when selling expensive items - and than shipping Internationally in particular. I hope it turns out well for you though....Good luck!
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Old 09-27-2009
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Well, i woke up today with an email in my inbox stating the buyer escalated the claim to be reviewed!!! This guy is rediculous, he doesn't discuss anything with me!!

I logged into paypal and have a few options on how to handle the case:

1. issue the buyer a refund for the disputed amount of $1,765.00 USD. The buyer can keep the item(s).

2. Issue the buyer a refund for the disputed amount of $1,765.00 USD. The buyer must return the item(s).

3. Offer the buyer a partial refund in an attempt to close this claim.

4. Provide proof that the buyer has already been refunded.

5. Disagree with claim. I would like to provide additional information.


Which would you suggest i do? Half of me just wants to select option 2, have him return it to me then get his money back (just to end this damn thing), but my guess is that i'll get a package from him, but it'll be a friggin rock inside. Even if i take pictures at the postal office, as soon as paypal receives a tracking number from him, and as soon as it states 'delivered' they automatically end the claim. They won't care what's inside the box and i wont have time to argue. Even if i appealed it, how can i prove to paypal there was a brick in the box?

This guy is a SCAMMER. I don't know what to do from here :(

The original tracking still states not delivered. Should i select option 5 "disagree with claim" ? What would i select after this?

Thanks for any help!
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Old 09-27-2009
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get item returned and take pictures with the postal worker, as stated previously..at least if its a rock you would have proof..all you can do is tell paypal you are dubious and to wait for a few days after delivery for you to upload any proof against him....

I cannot see how you would be able to disagree with claim - paypal isnt interested in that..

I bet you if you were to send him a box of rocks he will have witnesses....
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Old 09-27-2009
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Exactly! Just make sure you have witnesses and take photos what was sent in the package. The best would be that they leave you the note and you need to pick up at the Post Office.The only thing that worries me is if they can send package without your signature required.. Than, postal service can just leave it at your door and his tracking would show delivered and you would not have the opportunity to have witnesses....Anyone?
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Old 09-27-2009
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I vote for " disagree with claim". You have a proof that buyer does not have your item yet, so if you refund, you may never see your microscope again and your money is gone.
Its an obvious scam... Defend your money, close the bank account.. If you ever receive the item back, you can always issue a refund.
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Old 09-27-2009
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Did you check the feedbacks he left for other sellers? Sometimes those show the true color of the buyer. Meanwhile, definitely disagree with the claim.
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I agree with the above posts- disagree with the claim for now- keep putting it off for a while

IN THE MEANTIME, go to the bank first thing in the morning and close that bank account and REMOVE that bank account from your paypal. You must do this part ASAP or else paypal will automatically deduct from your bank. If your paypal has your real info, change the phone number but if they also have your ssn, then you're pretty much in a $1700 hole. But if you did give them your ssn, PM me and I can probably guide you through it.
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Old 09-28-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyda View Post
Exactly! Just make sure you have witnesses and take photos what was sent in the package. The best would be that they leave you the note and you need to pick up at the Post Office.The only thing that worries me is if they can send package without your signature required.. Than, postal service can just leave it at your door and his tracking would show delivered and you would not have the opportunity to have witnesses....Anyone?
what if seller tells the buyer to send the item back to a "non-existant" address, then paypal will see that it never reached back to the seller, thus negating the claim.
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Old 09-28-2009
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^ wouldnt the buyer see ship back to address on paypal message and also if buyer finds out this was done, would report it to paypal, and seller will get canned for supply of incorrect paypal address and invalid address abusing paypal etc..
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Old 09-28-2009
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Agreed with Ooompa. I don't think that OP has a problem with his own shipping/receiving address with PayPal. If its a Stealth account, than yes , that could be a problem.
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Old 09-29-2009
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well i called paypal yesterday and they suggested i select the option to give him a refund after it's been sent back to me.

I told paypal the tracking stated it hadn't been delivered, and asked "what if" he sends me a bag of rocks- they told me if that does happen, all i'd have to do is appeal and post pictures and they would "trust me".

I got the paypal guy's name and contact info to use as leverage i they end up screwing me in the future lol.

I figure if i appeal stating i got a bag of rocks in return, i can mention the original tracking never stated delivered, which would imply he wouldn't have the real thing to send back in the first place.

Think it'll work?
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Old 09-29-2009
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Yeah I think you will be alright. Has the tracking updated at all though?
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Old 09-29-2009
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if he didnt get thing in the first place - that isnt good for you unless you can get the deliverer to pay-up ( I personally just dont see a buyer saying something is damaged when he can say it was not delivered and here is proof)

Has he still not provided pictures - why? that is surely in your favour

still think you should call return deliverer and tell them the item is disputed and you want to be there with a camera to sign for it, and leave a note at your door to say, dont just leave it, please leave card so you can rearrange a date you will be home to take a picture...like a Saturday morning...
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