The TRUTH about Johnson & Pham

[jeffweico]

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT an attorney, so none of the below should be taken as legal advice. If you need legal advice, please seek the services of a licensed attorney. I am only reporting the results of my research. Also, I do NOT advocate the selling of counterfeit products. That is NOT what this post is about! This post is about making people who have tried to sell legitimate products aware of the tactics used by Johnson & Pham, an Intellectual Property Rights law firm located in California.

PLEASE DO NOT POST ANY PART OF THIS IN THE PUBLIC AREA OF THIS FORUM! If you need to pass this on, do it PRIVATELY, through a PM.

Johnson & Pham has at least 2 major clients. They are Product Partners, LLC - the makers of the P90X, BeachBody Fitness and others. And Your Baby Can, LLC - the makers of Your Baby Can Read, Your Baby Can Think, and others.

Johnson & Pham, in their normal course of business is known to send emails and snail mail to people who have sold, or attempted to sell, their client's products online, especially through eBay. These emails/letters accuse the recipient of selling counterfeit products bearing the trademark of their clients and also of violating copyright laws. These letters usually demand the recipient cease and decist selling such products and demand a payment of roughly $1,000 or else!

A Google search of "JOHNSON & PHAM" (using the quotes to eliminate posts that have nothing to do with the law firm, that simply contain both the words Johnson and Pham) yields over 34,000 results.

Most of these posts were made by people who bought the legitimate products from the respective companies and no longer want or need them, and attempted to sell them through eBay. Certainly, some of the posts might be by people who have attempted to sell counterfeit goods, but it is my belief they are in the minority.

For someone who has never dealt with the legal system and has never been sued, these letters can be VERY SCARY and cause people to lose sleep, cause excess stress, or even cause tension within their families. From the internet posts, we can guess that HUNDREDS, or even THOUSANDS of people receive such letters each year.

So, how many lawsuits does J&P actually FILE? VERY FEW! In the case of Your Baby Can, LLC, there have been only TEN (10) lawsuits, all filed on 01-14-2010. In the case of Product Partners, LLC the number is about FIFTEEN (15) per year. So, the actual number of lawsuits filed in realtion to the number of threatening letters sent is very, very small. To see how I found this data, please see ABOUT PACER, at the end of this post.

These lawsuits all have several things in common, but the ONE THING that jumped out at me is that in each and every case CHRIS JOHNSON of Woodland Hills, California made a PayPal purchase of the product. The PayPal payment screen printout is attached as an exhibit in every case. Please keep in mind, this can change - they can have ANYONE purchase the product and hand it over to them. But this has not happened yet. Chris Johnson is most likely THE Johnson in Johnson & Pham.

Once they have the product, they can turn it over to their client, who can then determine whether or not the product is legitimate. Only then is a lawsuit filed.

This is a sleazy business practice. It is very similar to the business model employed by collection attorneys. Collection Law Firms usually file a very small number of suits, but depend on their threatening letters to make people pay out of fear. It works.

J&P keeps the amount asked for relatively low, at about $1,000. They do this because they know that it would cost their victims more than that to hire an attorney to defend them in actual litigation. So many attorneys will simply advise their clients to settle. This makes me VERY ANGRY because it is just plain WRONG! What they are doing may be LEGAL, but it is UNETHICAL and IMMORAL.

Unless they purchase a set from a seller, they have no way of knowing for sure if the product is counterfeit or not. And, in court, they need PROOF that the set is counterfiet, not just their BELIEF that it is counterfeit. Further, they KNOW that buying every set on eBay would not be cost effective, since many would turn out of be legitimate. So they issue the takedown notices and follow it up with their threatening letters. Many people will pay out of fear of being sued - even if the set in question is legitimate.

This practice may be LEGAL but it is VERY SLEAZY! It is MY BELIEF that they only file lawsuits so that if they are ever questioned about their tactics they can say "Yes, we DO file suits. Just look at THESE." Otherwise, they could face a class action lawsuit under the Deceptive Practices Act (I don't know what California calls their act, but I'm certain they have one - every state does). Filing a few lawsuits here and there protects them from this.

If you sell these products, you are asking for trouble. Not necessarily LEGAL trouble, but trouble. They will issue the takedown notices to eBay and it could get you suspended. And selling counterfeits could certainly get you sued. Or worse. So the best thing is to stay away from them. If you want to sell a legitimate set, do it in the classified section of your offline newspaper.

But, unless you are selling ⊗⊗⊗⊗, and received a payment from Chris Johnson in Woodland Hills, CA, I wouldn't pay them either. Answering such a letter can only make the situation worse. If you feel threatened enough, the best course of action is to speak with a licensed attorney.

ABOUT PACER: Pacer is the "Public Access to Court Electronic Records" database. You do NOT have to be an attorney to access this. All data contained in the database is PUBLIC RECORD. You DO have to have an account, and make a $50 deposit. From the deposit, they deduct 8 cents for each page accessed. This money pays for the system. To find it, just type PACER into Google. Please understand this database only contains FEDERAL COURT RECORDS, not State or Local court records.

[slapped]

Excellent post and 100% Correct.

to Add: they also Represent Chalean Extreme, Insanity,( I am not sure if these 2 are part of Product partners) and they recently added Tre Milano makers of the Instyler Rotating Hair Iron.

One of the Main reasons that they DO NOT prosecute many cases is the fact that Prosecutors (The Various States and Federal Goverment's District Attorneys) WILL NOT take cases that involve Minimal Amounts of Sales.

Looking a Little deeper into the cases that they have Filed suit against you will see that there are Hundereds or thousands of sales involved. These guys are so Active on ebay that NO ONE Has the opportunity to Achieve such sales levels that a prosecutor will take such a Case.

[jeffweico]

Originally Posted by slapped

Excellent post and 100% Correct.

to Add: they also Represent Chalean Extreme, Insanity,( I am not sure if these 2 are part of Product partners) and they recently added Tre Milano makers of the Instyler Rotating Hair Iron.

One of the Main reasons that they DO NOT prosecute many cases is the fact that Prosecutors (The Various States and Federal Goverment's District Attorneys) WILL NOT take cases that involve Minimal Amounts of Sales.

Looking a Little deeper into the cases that they have Filed suit against you will see that there are Hundereds or thousands of sales involved. These guys are so Active on ebay that NO ONE Has the opportunity to Achieve such sales levels that a prosecutor will take such a Case.

Slapped is also right on the money. But just to clear up any confusion. there are TWO TYPES of cases that can be filed.

The first is CIVIL, where you are sued by a company or another individual. The second is CRIMINAL, where a state or federal prosecutor is filing a case against you.

In CIVIL court, usually the worst thing that can happen is a judgment is entered against you. More than 80% of all money judgments go unpaid.

In CRIMINAL court, if they find against you, there can be fines or even a prison sentence involved.

It is an important distinction. While any individual or company can sue you for anything they like, only the STATE OR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can prosecute a criminal case. And, as Slapped pointed out, this is VERY RARE. Generally speaking, before a prosecutor will even LOOK at a case, there has to be an allegation and some sort of evidence pointing to LARGE AMOUNTS of money being involved, or else a real PHYSICAL risk to the public (public endangerment). So, selling a copule of sets on eBay just won't do it.

[slapped]

Originally Posted by jeffweico

Slapped is also right on the money. But just to clear up any confusion. there are TWO TYPES of cases that can be filed.

The first is CIVIL, where you are sued by a company or another individual. The second is CRIMINAL, where a state or federal prosecutor is filing a case against you.

In CIVIL court, usually the worst thing that can happen is a judgment is entered against you. More than 80% of all money judgments go unpaid.

In CRIMINAL court, if they find against you, there can be fines or even a prison sentence involved.

It is an important distinction. While any individual or company can sue you for anything they like, only the STATE OR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can prosecute a criminal case. And, as Slapped pointed out, this is VERY RARE. Generally speaking, before a prosecutor will even LOOK at a case, there has to be an allegation and some sort of evidence pointing to LARGE AMOUNTS of money being involved, or else a real PHYSICAL risk to the public (public endangerment). So, selling a copule of sets on eBay just won't do it.

Again 100% correct, and Again to add, Johnson & Pham Most likely will NEVER Initiate Civil Litigation against you For the the Reason pointed out by jeffweico Above they will in Most Cases be Unable to recover a DIME and Litigation costs time and Money and it is a Reasonable Assumption that they will not Persue this Route.

In the matter of a Criminal case all they Really need to do is convince a Prosecutor to "Take The case" and it then becomes the Prosecutors (The Goverments) Time and Money, This as was pointed out is VERY UNLIKELY

[jeffweico]

FOLLOW-UP:

Just a quick FYI to add to this thread...

It has been reported by a forum member that one of the names they are using to purchase sets is Juan Dough.

And no I'm not kidding....

[boxcutters]

City, State the same?

[jeffweico]

Originally Posted by boxcutters

City, State the same?

They use the address of the law firm.

[rcdrivertim]

Originally Posted by jeffweico

They use the address of the law firm.

Anyone selling that stuff should just run the shipping address through Google to see where it hits back to as well...

[GreenBean]

Or, stop selling the item unless it is authorized

Do keep in mind, this is a comment and not legal advice as was noted in the disclaimer.

Again, if such items are purchased and there is the potential for legal action, expert advice is needed, not forum advice.

[Here We Go Again]

ONE THING that jumped out at me is that in each and every case CHRIS JOHNSON of Woodland Hills, California made a PayPal purchase of the product.

This is true. This happened to me a few years ago.
It was a clothing item that he purchased from me and it was not on eBay but on sell.com
They then filed charges against me Federal Court in Los Angeles.
Since ALL they had on me was a Stealth name & address they basically filed charges against a ghost.

[jeffweico]

Originally Posted by Here We Go Again

ONE THING that jumped out at me is that in each and every case CHRIS JOHNSON of Woodland Hills, California made a PayPal purchase of the product.

This is true. This happened to me a few years ago.
It was a clothing item that he purchased from me and it was not on eBay but on sell.com
They then filed charges against me Federal Court in Los Angeles.
Since ALL they had on me was a Stealth name & address they basically filed charges against a ghost.

Charges or a lawsuit? Charges usualy mean criminal, which is done by Federal or State prosecutors. In a lawsuit, a COMPLAINT is filed.