HMRC effects £1740 limit

[Captain_America]

So the online marketplaces submits the data to HMRC. If they have turned over more online then what they have stated on their tax return, it will look suspicious. If the details are stealth, you think they will just leave it? Of course they won't. For a start it shows you have something to hide. It will show fraud where ⊗⊗⊗⊗ documents have been used to pass verification. Then they will go back historically. Judging by responses on this forum, a lot of people aren't honest with their returns. I have used stealth to get back on marketplaces when I've been suspended, not as a way of getting out of paying for tax. I used to be able to open an Amazon account in ten mins. All I needed was a phone number and a VCC which was £20 and lasted a year. You didn't have to supply ID or any documents ever. and that was turning over decent money. It's all changed and people won't get around it. I would only use stealth now if it was the difference between being able to earn enough money to live or not. Maybe not within the next few years, but all this will happen.

[murdered_by_ebay]

I doubt they care about stealth accounts and will not have access to the docs which were used for verification if any. It is about taxes so first and foremost it will about specific categories of sellers and there will a lot of information to process

partially the information has already been disclosed who will be targeted. it is for sure people renting out their properties and offering regular services. why? most likely because the tax basis is clear , they can use fictional rent and figure out the income for example , people selling cars are another category - here the same thing , a clear tax basis

[james_112233]

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

I doubt they care about stealth accounts and will not have access to the docs which were used for verification if any. It is about taxes so first and foremost it will about specific categories of sellers and there will a lot of information to process

partially the information has already been disclosed who will be targeted. it is for sure people renting out their properties and offering regular services. why? most likely because the tax basis is clear , they can use fictional rent and figure out the income for example , people selling cars are another category - here the same thing , a clear tax basis

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

many things are possible , it is even possible that aliens arrive tomorrow

I am talking about things that are doable , all that information about sales , bank accounts etc. is worthless as long as the tax basis can not be calculated automatically

They would be able to do it with VAT because the turnover is the tax basis but with the small sellers under VAT threshold they would need to know what was sold , how much , used or new , where it came from , how much it was purchased for , how much profit was made , whether it was purchased at all , whether it was unique items or many copies of the same item etc. if there is no cooperation they would need to estimate , they would get appeals , very many appeals to process etc.

no software can do this stuff , they can not send automated tax bills as long as they do not have the basis. all these numbers do not mean anything as long as they are not connected to the existing laws which allow to determine the tax basis and estimate the profit , penalties etc.

for this very reason I am convinced they will be looking primarily for VAT and even that probably in 2-3 years or later

I have to agree with your analysis.

If the tax basis is clear you're definitely a primary target.

[BeachedHead]

Originally Posted by Captain_America

So the online marketplaces submits the data to HMRC. If they have turned over more online then what they have stated on their tax return, it will look suspicious. If the details are stealth, you think they will just leave it? Of course they won't. For a start it shows you have something to hide. It will show fraud where ⊗⊗⊗⊗ documents have been used to pass verification. Then they will go back historically. Judging by responses on this forum, a lot of people aren't honest with their returns. I have used stealth to get back on marketplaces when I've been suspended, not as a way of getting out of paying for tax. I used to be able to open an Amazon account in ten mins. All I needed was a phone number and a VCC which was £20 and lasted a year. You didn't have to supply ID or any documents ever. and that was turning over decent money. It's all changed and people won't get around it. I would only use stealth now if it was the difference between being able to earn enough money to live or not. Maybe not within the next few years, but all this will happen.

The huge whole in your theory, is what tax return? Who's to say what tax return online sales goes through, they could be ran through a sole trader or company tax return. Without UTR and NI numbers, at the moment , this is all null and void, and considering the HMRC just had to cancel over 30,000 late tax return fines because many of the customers trying to speak to them about it couldn't get through, do you think they are equipped to manually deal with all of this off the bat? Of course they are not.

Of course, possibly in years to come they will increase work force and build better algorithms etc but right now, my feeling is this is a scare tactic to get loads of people signing up and paying their dues. They will seek out some 'big' earners/evaders to show they are doing their 'job' and filling their quota's but it's simply not feasible to go after a person with no existent details through a bank account that may or may not still be active.

Of course, if you get on the radar, then sure, they will seek you out, but thats a couple of big 'ifs', and then they gotta work out cost of item and profit made amongst many other things...

[BeachedHead]

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

sure I have been doing UK for 22 years + 4 years before that outside the UK , considering all the crap people have been writing here about verification , ip addresses , account warming up , which items they sell or are planning to sell etc. , I would say 90%+ have less experience than me

and it is easy to see in this thread here , they have been writing about mass tax investigations - anyone familiar with the topic knows that it is impossible , it is physically not doable neither in the UK nor in other countries

I don;t know what 'doing the UK' means, but we are talking outside of Stealthing and the broader picture.

Only today Apple have now been beaten by the home office and cannot offer secure encryption on Apple devices and the Police are officially using facial recognition despite its usage technically being debated. The Police State is moving fast.

https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/

[murdered_by_ebay]

Originally Posted by james_112233

I have to agree with your analysis.

If the tax basis is clear you're definitely a primary target.

and partially it is a political interest , for example people renting out their properties on day to day basis are destroying the business of hotels because hotels have to follow various rules and are unable to compete

[murdered_by_ebay]

Originally Posted by BeachedHead

I don;t know what 'doing the UK' means, but we are talking outside of Stealthing and the broader picture.

Only today Apple have now been beaten by the home office and cannot offer secure encryption on Apple devices and the Police are officially using facial recognition despite its usage technically being debated. The Police State is moving fast.

https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/

it is old news , FBI and CIA have had access to apple for years , I guess they did not share the asset with their UK colleagues? facial recognition from video cameras , all this has been going on for years and does not have any relation to taxes or ebay

[james_112233]

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

and partially it is a political interest , for example people renting out their properties on day to day basis are destroying the business of hotels because hotels have to follow various rules and are unable to compete

Definitely.

Also stopping people selling on the second hand market will now boost the revenue of second hand shops like cex etc.

No one will bother listing items on eBay/etsy anymore they'll just take it to thrift stores and get rid for silly prices boosting their income.

[BeachedHead]

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

it is old news , FBI and CIA have had access to apple for years , I guess they did not share the asset with their UK colleagues? facial recognition from video cameras , all this has been going on for years and does not have any relation to taxes or ebay

Not according to Apple

https://www.apple.com/customer-lette...pple%20devices.

Just you, on the internet.

[murdered_by_ebay]

Originally Posted by james_112233

Definitely.

Also stopping people selling on the second hand market will now boost the revenue of second hand shops like cex etc.

No one will bother listing items on eBay/etsy anymore they'll just take it to thrift stores and get rid for silly prices boosting their income.

all this comes from the EU , they are the initiators of the whole process , UK is just swimming along

the actual repressions have been going on within the EU as they need to a lot of money to run their system. as UK seller I would not worry too much , EU sellers I express my condolences

[Captain_America]

I disagree, why put legislation in place and then not use it? Every account will have to have an NI number or the like by the end of the year. That then derails your point.

Originally Posted by BeachedHead

The huge whole in your theory, is what tax return? Who's to say what tax return online sales goes through, they could be ran through a sole trader or company tax return. Without UTR and NI numbers, at the moment , this is all null and void, and considering the HMRC just had to cancel over 30,000 late tax return fines because many of the customers trying to speak to them about it couldn't get through, do you think they are equipped to manually deal with all of this off the bat? Of course they are not.

Of course, possibly in years to come they will increase work force and build better algorithms etc but right now, my feeling is this is a scare tactic to get loads of people signing up and paying their dues. They will seek out some 'big' earners/evaders to show they are doing their 'job' and filling their quota's but it's simply not feasible to go after a person with no existent details through a bank account that may or may not still be active.

Of course, if you get on the radar, then sure, they will seek you out, but thats a couple of big 'ifs', and then they gotta work out cost of item and profit made amongst many other things...

[Captain_America]

Why would we do this when we aren't part of the EU now? This is UK legislation.

Originally Posted by murdered_by_ebay

all this comes from the EU , they are the initiators of the whole process , UK is just swimming along

the actual repressions have been going on within the EU as they need to a lot of money to run their system. as UK seller I would not worry too much , EU sellers I express my condolences

[Captain_America]

Not practical for larger sellers.

Originally Posted by james_112233

Definitely.

Also stopping people selling on the second hand market will now boost the revenue of second hand shops like cex etc.

No one will bother listing items on eBay/etsy anymore they'll just take it to thrift stores and get rid for silly prices boosting their income.

[ft16]

Originally Posted by Captain_America

Why would we do this when we aren't part of the EU now? This is UK legislation.

Nothing to do with the EU, its because the UK signed up to the Organisation for Economic Development (OECD) model rules for reporting by platform operators.

Along with 28 other countries: Argentina, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Colombia, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cyprus, Czechia, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Spain, and Sweden.

[murdered_by_ebay]

it was pushed by the EU though , they are taking online sales under control , they have reduced the intra EU VAT threshold to 10K too

the main reason is that online sellers destroy businesses from outside of major marketplaces so they decided to put pressure on them

[Captain_America]

When did I say it had anything to do with the EU?

Originally Posted by ft16

Nothing to do with the EU, its because the UK signed up to the Organisation for Economic Development (OECD) model rules for reporting by platform operators.

Along with 28 other countries: Argentina, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Colombia, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cyprus, Czechia, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Spain, and Sweden.

[Jack199]

Just saw this - HMRC One to Many letter – Online Marketplace Sales

Basically it seems they are contacting everyone, although interesting that it relates to the tax year April 2022 to April 2023

Anyone got one yet?


https://www.tax.org.uk/hmrc-one-to-m...ketplace-sales

[BeachedHead]

Originally Posted by Captain_America

I disagree, why put legislation in place and then not use it? Every account will have to have an NI number or the like by the end of the year. That then derails your point.

You can cheat the NI number request fairly easily, so right now it means nothing, and if the time comes when eBay can check the NI number, then there still wont be an NI account number entered to a Stealth account, as it won't work because the Stealth details don't exist.

[BeachedHead]

Originally Posted by Jack199

Just saw this - HMRC One to Many letter – Online Marketplace Sales

Basically it seems they are contacting everyone, although interesting that it relates to the tax year April 2022 to April 2023

Anyone got one yet?


https://www.tax.org.uk/hmrc-one-to-m...ketplace-sales

A couple of my friends did early last year, one business account one private account. Both called the HMRC to gain further information and expressed they do feel they are applicable to them and the HMRC said they don't have access to that 'department' and couldn't provide any information about why it was requested.

They both rolled the dice and ignored it and nothing else has happened since then..make of that what you will.

[Jack199]

Originally Posted by BeachedHead

A couple of my friends did early last year, one business account one private account. Both called the HMRC to gain further information and expressed they do feel they are applicable to them and the HMRC said they don't have access to that 'department' and couldn't provide any information about why it was requested.

They both rolled the dice and ignored it and nothing else has happened since then..make of that what you will.

Thanks for the reply, that is useful to know. I wonder if whoever they spoke to at HMRC marked something on their file to indicate 'no further action required'.

I don't suppose you know roughly what kind of sales revenue they were doing? I only ask as if it was tiny, it might explain why there was no follow up letter.

[BeachedHead]

Originally Posted by Jack199

Thanks for the reply, that is useful to know. I wonder if whoever they spoke to at HMRC marked something on their file to indicate 'no further action required'.

I don't suppose you know roughly what kind of sales revenue they were doing? I only ask as if it was tiny, it might explain why there was no follow up letter.

Business account is Stealth but she has access to the address used, roughly 40k ish

Personal account is real, friend who trades in expensive audio equipment, so not huge volume of transactions but high value , probably around the same 40k ish too

What seems to be the general feeling is that the HMRC aren't equipped to deal with it - YET, so there's no one actually managing it all. It's more a scare tactic to get people to vountary register. Speculation of course.

I mean, they let off 30,000 self employed sole traders late last year in self assessment fines because they didnt habve the manpower to manager all their queries...

[Captain_America]

Then they will request your bank details from the bank you have on file for deposit and easily find out who you are.

Originally Posted by BeachedHead

You can cheat the NI number request fairly easily, so right now it means nothing, and if the time comes when eBay can check the NI number, then there still wont be an NI account number entered to a Stealth account, as it won't work because the Stealth details don't exist.