Stealth Gone Wrong? Insane

raskolnik · #45 01-24-2015

"False pretenses" (as well as fraud) refers to the product or service. It is in no way - legally speaking - considered to be false pretenses or fraud if you are selling under an assumed name, etc., as we do as stealth operators. Were that the case, DBAs and the like would not be legal.
The only instance wherein using a pseudonym/contrived address or some such similar thing would be considered to be de facto illegal false pretenses or fraud is if said pseudonym/contrived address were a contributing and salient factor in the sale. Viz: You choose as a pseudonym that of a famous person or celebrity, and you sell a product or service wherein the value of said product or service is based on said alleged celebrity, that's fraud. Another example would be that you claim or pretend to have security credentials, and are selling a service wherein that claim has an impact on the value of that service (bodyguard, IT security), that's fraud.
Basically, so long as whatever stealth details you utilize have no salient impact on the value of whatever product or service you are offering, and provided of course that you indeed do provide whatever product or service as advertised or specified, you are not legally considered to be operating under false pretenses, nor is there any legal grounds for pressing a charge of fraudulent behavior, activity, or intent.
tl;dr: Stealth done properly as instructed here on this site is perfectly legal, provided you are not making false claims about your product, and that you ship the item(s) as promised, and so forth.

raskolnik · #46 01-24-2015

Another way to look at it: There are dozens of industries where individuals prefer not to use their birth/given names: broadcasters, strippers, radio personalities, etc. Obviously they aren't committing fraud by doing so. Why not? Because the name they choose to utilize has no salient impact on the product or service they provide.

I disagree with the "grey area" notion. Legally speaking, fraud is defined as an intentional, material misrepresentation of fact made by a person or entity who is fully aware of said falsity to another person or entity for the purpose of causing or otherwise inducing the other person to act, resulting in injury or damage. (Legally speaking, "injury or damage" includes loss of money, etc.) Of course, omission of salient or material fact is also included - if you leave out something that must be known in order for other statements to be not misleading, that's fraud too.

Put another way, in order for something to be fraudulent, you need 2 ingredients:
1) a misrepresentation of fact, or omission of fact by which other statements are made misleading
2) it must - must - be "material" in the sense that it pertains to an important or significant detail or aspect, rather than a minor or trivial detail.

So, unless you're selling something that depends on your pseudonym/other stealth details for its value, the fact that you are using stealth to sell items or articles does not constitute fraud. There's no way to demonstrate that using a false name or address was the cause or inducement for the other person to act (i.e. buy your item on eBay).

Now, if you use a pseudonym/false address or other stealth techniques with the intent of not paying your fees (for example), yes, of course that's fraud.

Once again, if you're selling legit items and you're shipping on time and paying your fees and all that, you are totally fine.

And if you're really that nervous about using stealth, a) don't do it anymore, I guess; and b) I'm going to go ahead and assume that you're actually nervous about something other than that you're using stealth (i.e. you're selling dodgy merchandise, maybe?).

danshan · #47 01-24-2015

What your saying Has nothing to do with unauthorized access. Ebay said you cannot use our services and you are accessing their services without their consent that is the illegal part. The lawyer said it is trespassing in a way it falls under the hacker laws. Fyi the lawyers specialty is intellectual property

yankee · #48 01-24-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by danshan

Fyi the lawyers specialty is intellectual property

Intellectual property seems to be Patent/trademarks/brand etc...?

danshan · #49 01-24-2015

Thats why i included that fact. He is not a criminal attorney. He also started talking about ebay can come after you for all kinds of stuff but I was more concerned with the basic legality of creating stealth accounts and selling them. Selling accounts with false info according to him is like a guy selling a stolen gun to a killer. Seller has responsibility which freaked me out too but again he is not a criminal lawyer. In your opinion what percentage of stealth accts are used to sell cakes and bs? my guess is really high. I was looking at responses on cake threads and the response is huge. I dont care what anybody says on here we all know cakes are illegal. You can find in this forum 100s of guys ask a question my acct is dead for selling cakes and go over to the marketplace and they are asking about accts to buy. How can the seller of accts say i did not know he was going to do something illegal with it come the f on. I use stealth to arbitrage and sell products that i customize. I believe after all the info i got, creating a stealth is NOT illegal UNLESS you have been notified by the company to not use their services.

danshan · #50 01-24-2015

Also remember you ask a lawyer if you can cross the street and they will tell you all the criminal and civil risks. I agree that intent is what it is all about. A guy builds 100 hundred accounts to buy all my inventory that is criminal imo, a guy builds a 100 accts to separate the different categories of items he sells that is not criminal imo

yankee · #51 01-24-2015

I absolutely agree about the foo foo stuff. It seems foofoo and risky items is the majority of peoples issues. At least for the people loosing accounts constantly anyways.

With your last sentence, we are in 100% agreement.

danshan · #52 01-24-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by raskolnik

"False pretenses" (as well as fraud) refers to the product or service. It is in no way - legally speaking - considered to be false pretenses or fraud if you are selling under an assumed name, etc., as we do as stealth operators. Were that the case, DBAs and the like would not be legal.
The only instance wherein using a pseudonym/contrived address or some such similar thing would be considered to be de facto illegal false pretenses or fraud is if said pseudonym/contrived address were a contributing and salient factor in the sale. Viz: You choose as a pseudonym that of a famous person or celebrity, and you sell a product or service wherein the value of said product or service is based on said alleged celebrity, that's fraud. Another example would be that you claim or pretend to have security credentials, and are selling a service wherein that claim has an impact on the value of that service (bodyguard, IT security), that's fraud.
Basically, so long as whatever stealth details you utilize have no salient impact on the value of whatever product or service you are offering, and provided of course that you indeed do provide whatever product or service as advertised or specified, you are not legally considered to be operating under false pretenses, nor is there any legal grounds for pressing a charge of fraudulent behavior, activity, or intent.
tl;dr: Stealth done properly as instructed here on this site is perfectly legal, provided you are not making false claims about your product, and that you ship the item(s) as promised, and so forth.

do you think it would change your sales numbers or sales price if buyers knew you were selling under an assumed name and that you had previously been banned by ebay and or paypal?

Cracker100 · #53 01-24-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by danshan

do you think it would change your sales numbers or sales price if buyers knew you were selling under an assumed name and that you had previously been banned by ebay and or paypal?

LOL...of course it would. I'm guessing that your sales would drop atleast 90% if not more

danshan · #54 01-24-2015

So false pretenses sounds obvious to me

Cracker100 · #55 01-24-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by danshan

So false pretenses sounds obvious to me

I would hope it's obvious to most people on here but from reading these forums everyday some people still seem to have no clue.

Klemantina · #56 01-24-2015

Legal or illegal, it doesn't really matter, if you operate properly and nobody complains because you selling legit products and have a great service show me a judge that will do something to you for opening couple of stores under different names, specially if you were banned because of unreasonable customers, thieves and competition.

danshan · #57 01-24-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klemantina

Legal or illegal, it doesn't really matter, if you operate properly and nobody complains because you selling legit products and have a great service show me a judge that will do something to you for opening couple of stores under different names, specially if you were banned because of unreasonable customers, thieves and competition.

Your response is unbelievable to me. To each his own

Cracker100 · #58 01-24-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klemantina

Legal or illegal, it doesn't really matter, if you operate properly and nobody complains because you selling legit products and have a great service show me a judge that will do something to you for opening couple of stores under different names, specially if you were banned because of unreasonable customers, thieves and competition.

I tried to stay out of this as much as I could.

Show you a judge...LMAO...how about you show me a judge that will find you NOT guilty for selling goods online under a false pretense and show me a judge that will not find you guilty for accepting money online from using a false pretense?

We all know what the deal is. If someone wants to argue that issue, show me a case law that backs your claim up before replying.

I'm sick of the legality talk about stealth

Klemantina · #59 01-24-2015

It doesn't matter if it's legal or illegal, it does matter if what you do is ethical or unethical, if i'm giving my brother illegal drugs to save him from pain, if i'm smoking a cigarette in an illegal place but there is no one in 50km radius, if my brother is about to die and he asks me to kill him to stop him from suffering, there is no legal or illegal, a judge should be a wise man that judges not only by the law but by moral ethical code, now do you think that what your doing is unethical?

danshan · #60 01-24-2015

I feel like my biz is worth something and i want to at all costs make sure what I am doing is legal.

Klemantina · #61 01-24-2015

It will never be legal for the same reason that drugs,guns,sex in public and other awesome things will never be legal, just because of idiots that making it look like more bad then good, why should you worry if its legal or illegal if what your doing is ethical and no judge will probably do anything for that.

Cracker100 · #62 01-24-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klemantina

It doesn't matter if it's legal or illegal, it does matter if what you do is ethical or unethical, if i'm giving my brother illegal drugs to save him from pain, if i'm smoking a cigarette in an illegal place but there is no one in 50km radius, if my brother is about to die and he asks me to kill him to stop him from suffering, there is no legal or illegal, a judge should be a wise man that judges not only by the law but by moral ethical code, now do you think that what your doing is unethical?

"It doesn't matter if it's legal or illegal,"

Really...OK...good luck with your future.

I'm not getting involved with this. I do not have the time to waste.

Cracker100 · #63 01-24-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klemantina

It will never be legal for the same reason that drugs,guns,sex in public and other awesome things will never be legal, just because of idiots that making it look like more bad then good, why should you worry if its legal or illegal if what your doing is ethical and no judge will probably do anything for that.

I guess the law works different in the USA then. Here iif its illegal your gone. Believe me when I say that because I know from experiience

Klemantina · #64 01-24-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cracker100

"It doesn't matter if it's legal or illegal,"

Really...OK...good luck with your future.

I'm not getting involved with this. I do not have the time to waste.

If you were living in North Korea and they would make farting illegal, do you think that the judge will do something to you for farting if no one is near you? it's a different story if your farting in your friends face, those people is a serious threat for the freedom of farting.
It does matter if its legal or illegal and it doesn't matter if its legal or illegal it all depends how you choose to look at it, the point i'm trying to make is that you, judges and the whole society should think if its ETHICAL and not if it's ILLEGAL.

Breakthecycle2 · #65 01-24-2015

I believe people are getting worked up for nothing. If you are selling things under stealth accounts and Ebay finds out and suspends your account, do you really think they are going to spend $1000's tracking you down and prosecute you? If they did that to every single person, they'd be broke. The go after the people who sell things and don't ship. Even then, the total's have to be alot, like in the 10's of $1000's. C'mon. Do they have the power? 100%, but it takes alot. Google cases. If you do, you will not find anything about stealthers.

Cracker100 · #66 01-24-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klemantina

If you were living in North Korea and they would make farting illegal, do you think that the judge will do something to you for farting if no one is near you? it's a different story if your farting in your friends face, those people is a serious threat for the freedom of farting.
It does matter if its legal or illegal and it doesn't matter if its legal or illegal it all depends how you choose to look at it, the point i'm trying to make is that you, judges and the whole society should think if its ETHICAL and not if it's ILLEGAL.

Hold on, I'm not disagreeing with that. I think the same but the court of law here does not care if it's ethical or not...if it is ethical but is illegal you have no chance here.

I'm 100% stealth and have been since joining this forum. I do not worry about the law at all. As long as the person is stealth and is not scamming everything will be fine.